All-Star The Thread To Stop The Hijacking Of The Cea Thread

[CGAcheer]

It is just $650 for a full paid bid. This is used towards your worlds package. Which costs usually at least $500 just to stay there and compete, not including travel.

How I want this to work is by using the Athlete registration system. If the athlete isn't registered in the system at the time of the paid bid, they don't get anything. The EP then gives $650 towards each QUALIFYING member of the team. This would all be traceable with a well put together Athlete registration system. They could easily check who has a bid etc.

What if for example a team had some issues and then had 5 new people after they had already earned a paid bid, could they then compete for a new paid bid to get the 5 new kids paid for?

I think a 75% bid earning roster rule would be simpler and would fit in line with a 25% or less crossover rule for all levels

 

[imrichhowboutu]

What if for example a team had some issues and then had 5 new people after they had already earned a paid bid, could they then compete for a new paid bid to get the 5 new kids paid for?

I think a 75% bid earning roster rule would be simpler and would fit in line with a 25% or less crossover rule for all levels

No. The team/gym has earned a paid bid for that division and would not be eligible for another one. If the team wanted to restructure according the guidelines set in place (up to 25% of the team) as long as the new members didn't earn a bid with another team and were replacing members that actually earned the bid as well then it would be paid for them as well.

 

[Rudags]

Rich - In your structure - Does that mean if someone gets a paid bid, someone gets injured, and an alternate is used they have to pay full price?

 

[yojaehs]

Here is my issue. On one hand you have the "small gym" fighting FOR crossovers, then you have the "big gym" using crossovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Gyms have been doing this for a long time and as long as it is within what the USASF guidelines state then there is really no reason to attack a GYM for their decisions. IF the parents of kids in that gym have issue with it then that is their fight to have, don't like it, don't cheer there. I'm not saying I agree with crossovers, bc I don't, honestly I wish ALL crossovers were illegal and you would have to "make it work" but I'm aware that my thinking on that issue is a bit old school. Some gyms (mine included) I feel police themselves and limit crossovers as much as possible but in some situations, yes, we do use them, not bc we have to but in reality bc it just makes things easier.

Example: Two years ago, my team had an injury, I spoke to my boss about it and they said "make it work with kids you have" so I did. This year, same situation, I spoke to my boss they said "lets talk to "x" kid and see if WE can make it work" Either way, my job is to make it work, is it easier with crossovers, yes, is it always an option, no. Some can, some can't.

Until USASF changes their policy, I don't feel anyone has the right to attack any gym for using the crossover rule the way THEY seem fit. As someone stated earlier, everyone that has ever used a crossover for ANY reason has justified it to themselves, at the end of the day all that matters is that they can justify it within the rules we are given and to their paying parents. So if you want to attack USASF for their rule, attack them. It is completely WRONG to attack ANY gym because they are staying within the RULES.

Here is another scenario: A few years ago when the whole "super senior" rule came out, "some gyms" were for "some gyms" were against. A "high profile" coach spoke up and said "If this rule that I disagree with is in place, don't be mad if there are college kids on high school teams and you get beat" Again, another situation where, was it "popular" NO, was it within the rules YES. And look at it now, it's hard to find a Senior "Worlds Team" without a college kid on it.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Rich - In your structure - Does that mean if someone gets a paid bid, someone gets injured, and an alternate is used they have to pay full price?

Only if the replacement earned a paid bid on another team, or if the person's spot they are replacing didn't earn the paid bid.

So you Have Suzie competing on Shooting stars. She earns a paid bid with the team. She has a mental block and is put on Odyssey. Odyssey receives a paid bid. Suzie doesn't receive the $650 towards her spot because she already earned a paid bid with another team. Suzie's mental block is over and now returns to shooting stars. Molly who is taking Suzie's spot on Odyssey will have to pay full price for worlds because she is taking someone's spot who didn't receive a paid bid already. Sally who was on Odyssey from the beginning, breaks her left pinky. Megan who is taking her spot will be taking a paid bid spot from Sally so will have the $650 put towards her worlds trip.


We really need a good Athlete registration system. All of this could easily be put into effect with a computer program that has some sort of intelligence. When you register for a competition, you register by athlete number. When you register for worlds, it lets you select no less than 75% of the original team that was rostered and then add in some additional people granted they meet the criteria (not already on another gym's team) and anything else we decide.

 

[juscheerthatisall]

What if paid bids were based on the athletes. Athletes #1-20 received a paid bid to worlds. Team 2 had athletes # 15-35 on it. Only athletes # 21-35 actually receive money to attend worlds. Those athletes that weren't on the floor when the bid was won wouldn't be eligible to go on a paid bid, now would a team get the full amount of money if some athletes already received some sort of compensation.

And it should be the same with coaches. If your gym has 3 teams with the same coaches, you only get the money for the first time.

I like this idea alot. So if u choose to stack your team u would be stacking it with people who earned their own bid. I think people would be a lot more accepting if each individual athlete earned their own way there. One question though if you do have to substitute for injury etc how does that person earn a bid? And how do we ensure that EP won't give the bid to team b because most of their kids already have bids and they "cost less" actually even if EP's don't do this I'm sure there will be several threads claiming they do. Maybe I don't like this idea so much

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I like this idea alot. So if u choose to stack your team u would be stacking it with people who earned their own bid. I think people would be a lot more accepting if each individual athlete earned their own way there. One question though if you do have to substitute for injury etc how does that person earn a bid? And how do we ensure that EP won't give the bid to team b because most of their kids already have bids and they "cost less" actually even if EP's don't do this I'm sure there will be several threads claiming they do. Maybe I don't like this idea so much

Perhaps EP's don't have access to this information. They input data into the system that says this team earned a paid bid. The system then tells the EP how much to write a check for based on the number of eligible athletes on the floor.


As I said, if someone is replacing an injured athlete who earned a paid bid, then their spot is paid. If you replace someone who didn't receive the paid bid, then it isn't.

Also, paid bids aren't transferrable between teams. The athlete earns the bid, but it stays with that original team. So if Suzie goes from shooting stars to Odyssey, her paid bid doesn't go with her.

 

[juscheerthatisall]

So for clarity a girl cheers on f5 and reign, she earns a bid with f5 first, when reign earns a bid she isn't eligible because she already has one. Coaches decide to let her compete at worlds on reign not f5 she can't use her bid?
I think the bid should stay with the athlete as long as they are within the same organization of course. I don't have an issue with athletes moving between worlds teams within a gym, its the athletes that haven't received bids at all that I think should either A) not go or B) pay. As for transferring bids I would say bids can be freely transferred within the same gym. It doesn't give anyone an advantage unless they are kicking people off the team because all the worlds athlete will be using theirs on other teams.

 

[5-6-7-8]

...


We really need a good Athlete registration system. All of this could easily be put into effect with a computer program that has some sort of intelligence. When you register for a competition, you register by athlete number. When you register for worlds, it lets you select no less than 75% of the original team that was rostered and then add in some additional people granted they meet the criteria (not already on another gym's team) and anything else we decide.

This is something we have been discussing in the "Sandbagging" threads as well. It seems once an athlete number is assigned, teams can register teams by athlete number. With this information stored for each event, we would be able to perform various analyses to address these types of issues.

 

[Ceacoach]

This brings up a good point for discussion... How much responsibility do you grant the athletes on a team for success in a division and how much is that success a reflection of the routine, coaching, music, etc? I feel like coaches like Roger and Brad would be successful with any roster of athletes. I think so many times it just comes down to great knowledgeable experienced coaching. The rules can change for college every year in an effort to spread the wealth and James Speed is still going to prevail.

 

[ACEDAD]

Just getting caught up on all the excitement today. I did learn something new.

Excessive: an amount used by someone else's team.

 

[King]

This brings up a good point for discussion... How much responsibility do you grant the athletes on a team for success in a division and how much is that success a reflection of the routine, coaching, music, etc? I feel like coaches like Roger and Brad would be successful with any roster of athletes. I think so many times it just comes down to great knowledgeable experienced coaching. The rules can change for college every year in an effort to spread the wealth and James Speed is still going to prevail.

I think that is oversimplifying the role of athletes a bit though. If you gave Roger 'Panthers' athletes and Brad 'Oranges' athletes, then yes I think it is safe to say both teams would be equally, though differently successful (and most likely top 3). But at that top level the training and culture would be a factor to overcome for each set of athletes (the way Orange approaches a winning routine is, I am guessing, quite different than how Panthers approaches a winning routine).

I think Rays, Cheer Athletics, and CEA are more than just some of the top athletes at the gym. They are an entire culture and staff of people all working together to accomplish one goal. (For this next part I will speak specifically for Rays) I know that there is plenty of Orange that is Roger, but at the same time I dont think he could be as successful consistently without Brandon his co-coach. As well he has a consistent choreographer who works with him to best accomplish that routine. I know I have made quite a few suggestions over the years that have ended up in the routine (as well as others). And then you throw in that how we teach everything in our gym is to, in theory, lead all kids down the path towards a Worlds level 5 team at Rays. So that scorpion we taught a little kid on Mini 1 is the exact same type of scorpion they will pull on Orange or Smoke or Amber one day. That means they will have practice that single scorpion up to 10 years before competing it at Worlds. So, could Roger single handedly coach one team by himself to win once? Yes. But do I, more importantly, think Oranges success is built on a lot of people leading to that single goal, yes.

Is how our gym works how every gym works? No. I know Cheer Athletics is top heavy, but their culture produces some of the most talented and athletic teams in the country. They produce more level 5 teams than us, but we produce a higher quality lower level teams (this is in general, not every single team mind you). And that is what works best for their area. I dont know exactly how CEA works but it obviously works and works well for your area.

James has the best college in the country for what an allstar cheerleader wants. To compete as much as possible in the allstar world AND have a college experience along with it. His school limits the amount of non-talent coming in and, in general, has a large pool of athletes to choose from. He more closely resembles your description, but again he has a very deep and rich culture that produces consistently winning college routines (and competitive allstar routines).

So, to sum all that up. If you take Roger, Brad, James, Yourself and plunked you down in the middle of Wisconsin will you suddenly start winning Worlds? No. but given the right area, years of planning and hard work, a bit of luck, you could rebuild an entire ecosystem to produce the athletes needed to win worlds.

 

[12mowerd]

NO NO NO NO NO! So lets take example Cali moed, has amazing tumblers flyers and jumpers, members of coed,elite and smoed who have worked their butts off all year get a bid to worlds only to be told were now adding athlete A to the team because he is a better tumbler than you. Thats ok because "you do what you have to to win"?

of course. i guess im just looking at this as a "winner" perspective. if you are playing games throughout the season and you win some eh but come down to the state championship (in this case worlds) youre not gonna start the weaker ones. idk maybe im looking at this completely wrong. please feel free to correct me haha :p

 

[alexamarysouza]

*I cheered for CEA for 7 years
In regards to this whole topic, they do not 'share' athletes for worlds teams. They have worlds tryouts for certain teams (if not all worlds teams). If you're already on the team, then duh, you're going to tryout and be on the team. There's some people that either can't afford worlds, or can't go, or just haven't maintained their skills, and spots open;or the team wasn't full to begin with so they add on. If you're at a gym such as Salem, and you have level 5 skills, and want the opportunity to go to worlds, you can go tryout. If there's an athlete at more than one gym, it's usually because they're from one of the non-level-5 gyms and they decide to tryout. I had several friends who tried out for international all girl and made it just for worlds.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

Here is my issue. On one hand you have the "small gym" fighting FOR crossovers, then you have the "big gym" using crossovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Gyms have been doing this for a long time and as long as it is within what the USASF guidelines state then there is really no reason to attack a GYM for their decisions. IF the parents of kids in that gym have issue with it then that is their fight to have, don't like it, don't cheer there. I'm not saying I agree with crossovers, bc I don't, honestly I wish ALL crossovers were illegal and you would have to "make it work" but I'm aware that my thinking on that issue is a bit old school. Some gyms (mine included) I feel police themselves and limit crossovers as much as possible but in some situations, yes, we do use them, not bc we have to but in reality bc it just makes things easier.

Example: Two years ago, my team had an injury, I spoke to my boss about it and they said "make it work with kids you have" so I did. This year, same situation, I spoke to my boss they said "lets talk to "x" kid and see if WE can make it work" Either way, my job is to make it work, is it easier with crossovers, yes, is it always an option, no. Some can, some can't.

Until USASF changes their policy, I don't feel anyone has the right to attack any gym for using the crossover rule the way THEY seem fit. As someone stated earlier, everyone that has ever used a crossover for ANY reason has justified it to themselves, at the end of the day all that matters is that they can justify it within the rules we are given and to their paying parents. So if you want to attack USASF for their rule, attack them. It is completely WRONG to attack ANY gym because they are staying within the RULES.

Here is another scenario: A few years ago when the whole "super senior" rule came out, "some gyms" were for "some gyms" were against. A "high profile" coach spoke up and said "If this rule that I disagree with is in place, don't be mad if there are college kids on high school teams and you get beat" Again, another situation where, was it "popular" NO, was it within the rules YES. And look at it now, it's hard to find a Senior "Worlds Team" without a college kid on it.

I'm a small small gym fighting AGAINST crossovers. Just wanted to state my position in this battle. It has too many negative consequences than positive.