All-Star Time To Intervene?

[cupieqt]

When we have our showcase I tell the spectators any mistakes you see are the coaches fault. It's our job to make sure they are ready for the stage whether it be physical or mental. I cannot imagine sending my teams out to crash and burn like that. I've seen teams like this before too and I always wonder what the coaches were thinking.

What you get at practice is what you get onstage so those performances are happening in the gym as well. A prepared team can pull off a better than usual performance. A team that isn't prepared simply will NOT be magically awesome onstage.

 

[catlady]

I almost wanted to send the owner an email but Im sure she has enough to worry about with 4ish (Pretty sure it was 4) kids being taken off the mat in a stretcher or by am EMT!

As extreme as it sounds, it's like watching an approved form of child abuse. Four kids seriously hurt because of someone choosing to level up to appease "someone" is beyond reckless in my opinion. I don't believe these owners/coaches/parents are that delusional, I believe these are cases of adults wanting something and they don't care who gets hurt in the process as long as they get what they want. After a certain number of deductions, I think the music should stop to protect those kids.

Just my opinion, don't hurt the catlady.

 

[yojaehs]

This is going to sound extremely harsh but I in no way feel anyone has the right to step in and tell a program how to be run. Now with that being said, the power to police this relies on the parents. Parents, open your eyes and do some research. Your child's safety depends on it. I've had teams turn trainwreck when they walked out on the floor, it happens, does that mean I'm a bad coach or does that mean it was a bad day? Do I need to be bumped down a level or punished by USASF? No, it means an accident happened and I will prepare them better in the future. If you as a coach have never had a trainwreck ( I do believe there are different levels of trainwrecks ) you haven't been coaching long enough.

I 100% understand what people are saying, there are gyms out there that just don't get it. They don't use common sense, don't use proper progressions, don't regulate rules, etc. etc. I'm sorry people, it is never your or anyone outside of that's programs business. For me, it's better for my business. I can put my focus on others or focus on what I can control.

As far as USASF "credentialing" athletes, I don't think that makes much sense either (at this time) USASF has many other things they need to focus on (#1 IMO is making their coaches credentialing a hands on system to PROVE that coach knows what they are doing, but that's a whole different thread).
Here is what I could see the backlash of this being - You have a girl that can't throw a full or even a jump to back but you have a backspot get hurt and you NEED her, but you can't use her bc she is not "credentialed" level 5. No, she's a badA** backspot and I want her but now USASF says I can't. ---Careful what you wish for.

 

[Mclovin]

This is going to sound extremely harsh but I in no way feel anyone has the right to step in and tell a program how to be run. Now with that being said, the power to police this relies on the parents. Parents, open your eyes and do some research. Your child's safety depends on it. I've had teams turn trainwreck when they walked out on the floor, it happens, does that mean I'm a bad coach or does that mean it was a bad day? Do I need to be bumped down a level or punished by USASF? No, it means an accident happened and I will prepare them better in the future. If you as a coach have never had a trainwreck ( I do believe there are different levels of trainwrecks ) you haven't been coaching long enough.

I 100% understand what people are saying, there are gyms out there that just don't get it. They don't use common sense, don't use proper progressions, don't regulate rules, etc. etc. I'm sorry people, it is never your or anyone outside of that's programs business. For me, it's better for my business. I can put my focus on others or focus on what I can control.

As far as USASF "credentialing" athletes, I don't think that makes much sense either (at this time) USASF has many other things they need to focus on (#1 IMO is making their coaches credentialing a hands on system to PROVE that coach knows what they are doing, but that's a whole different thread).
Here is what I could see the backlash of this being - You have a girl that can't throw a full or even a jump to back but you have a backspot get hurt and you NEED her, but you can't use her bc she is not "credentialed" level 5. No, she's a badA** backspot and I want her but now USASF says I can't. ---Careful what you wish for.

1) I can't believe we actually disagree on something. We're usually on the same page.

2) In my athlete credentialing idea, an athlete would be credentialed in tumbling and stunting. If they were credentialed as a level 5 back spot but level 3 tumbling, that athlete could still compete on a level 5 team, they just wouldn't be allowed to throw tumbling above level 3. When you've seen as many scary routines coming out of the same gyms year after year, you will do almost anything to get it to stop. Athlete credentialing is a great first step, IMO.

 

[CoachTamara]

1) I can't believe we actually disagree on something. We're usually on the same page.

2) In my athlete credentialing idea, an athlete would be credentialed in tumbling and stunting. If they were credentialed as a level 5 back spot but level 3 tumbling, that athlete could still compete on a level 5 team, they just wouldn't be allowed to throw tumbling above level 3. When you've seen as many scary routines coming out of the same gyms year after year, you will do almost anything to get it to stop. Athlete credentialing is a great first step, IMO.

I just don't think the athlete level matters as much as GOOD, qualified coaches. These problems are not the fault of the kids and their abilities, it's the coaches. Random coaches off the street should not be teaching high level teams and telling the parents a load of crap to cover their butts.

 

[cupieqt]

yojaehs I 100% agree with your post. I do believe there is a difference between a team having a bad day and kids that are clearly not properly trained.
I've seen both kinds of performances and I agree there are different types of "train wrecks". You said what I was thinking in a much clearer post.

 

[cupieqt]

CoachTamara YES!!

(tag fail)

 

[viralscorp]

2) In my athlete credentialing idea, an athlete would be credentialed in tumbling and stunting. If they were credentialed as a level 5 back spot but level 3 tumbling, that athlete could still compete on a level 5 team, they just wouldn't be allowed to throw tumbling above level 3. When you've seen as many scary routines coming out of the same gyms year after year, you will do almost anything to get it to stop. Athlete credentialing is a great first step, IMO.

I'm not sure how this would work at all without ridiculous amounts of time and money - neither of which seem to exist at the moment. This not only requires credentialing individual athletes at least once a season, but would also necessitate some system of individual athlete monitoring throughout the season. Sometimes judges have a hard enough time figuring out whether there were 36 jumps to tuck or only 32 - now you would ask for someone to ensure that an athlete credentialed to level 3 didn't throw jumps to tuck?

I can see this system working fine for those gyms and coaches that are (for the most part) self-policing, but since we are discussing those gyms and coaches which are obviously not, I think the monitoring system would prove to be too huge of a barrier to overcome in implementing this.

Not to say that I don't think this is a great idea - I really think it is, I just have no idea how it could work in a sport that has only recently decided it has to figure out who is registered to be on the floor. I am keeping in mind that there is no system (that I know of) in place at any non-Worlds competition to ensure that only registered athletes are on the floor!

 

[CoachTamara]

I think athlete credentialing works great in gymnastics because it is an individual sport... They can progress at their own rate, and that progress doesn't influence any of the other gymnasts. It just doesn't work like that in cheer.
Also, I don't know how you can tell someone they are a level 3 back spot but not a level 4 or 5 backspot. They are doing the exact same job in theory.

 

[Mclovin]

I'm not sure how this would work at all without ridiculous amounts of time and money - neither of which seem to exist at the moment. This not only requires credentialing individual athletes at least once a season, but would also necessitate some system of individual athlete monitoring throughout the season. Sometimes judges have a hard enough time figuring out whether there were 36 jumps to tuck or only 32 - now you would ask for someone to ensure that an athlete credentialed to level 3 didn't throw jumps to tuck?

I can see this system working fine for those gyms and coaches that are (for the most part) self-policing, but since we are discussing those gyms and coaches which are obviously not, I think the monitoring system would prove to be too huge of a barrier to overcome in implementing this.

Not to say that I don't think this is a great idea - I really think it is, I just have no idea how it could work in a sport that has only recently decided it has to figure out who is registered to be on the floor. I am keeping in mind that there is no system (that I know of) in place at any non-Worlds competition to ensure that only registered athletes are on the floor!

I don't expect judges to police it. It would be much the same as calling out a gym that is cheating. If I am at a comp and see a team that clearly shouldn't be competing at that level, I report them and then the USASF checks each athlete that competed and makes sure they were all credentialed to that level. If not, they pay a hefty fine or are banned for an amount of time...Something along those lines.

 

[Mclovin]

I think athlete credentialing works great in gymnastics because it is an individual sport... They can progress at their own rate, and that progress doesn't influence any of the other gymnasts. It just doesn't work like that in cheer.
Also, I don't know how you can tell someone they are a level 3 back spot but not a level 4 or 5 backspot. They are doing the exact same job in theory.

I disagree with this (respectfully of course). Being a level 3 backspot and backspoting full ups to prep and straight up stunts is WAY easier than backspotting high to highs and double ups or catching a kick double basket.

 

[CoachTamara]

I disagree with this (respectfully of course). Being a level 3 backspot and backspoting full ups to prep and straight up stunts is WAY easier than backspotting high to highs and double ups or catching a kick double basket.

I agree, but the actual skill is the same. When you throw a basket, your job is to catch the flyer, no matter what that basket is. If you are doing an extended stunt, you are holding ankle no matter what they are doing up there. You might have to re-grab, but you are still an ankle holder. I think it's harder to be a L5, but I don't know if someone can come in and be like "well you can catch a kick full basket, but not a kick double." It's totally about the flyer, not the backspot at all. With gymnastics, you can clearly see "yes, you have this skill and you can land it."

 

[catlady]

This is going to sound extremely harsh but I in no way feel anyone has the right to step in and tell a program how to be run. Now with that being said, the power to police this relies on the parents. Parents, open your eyes and do some research. Your child's safety depends on it. I've had teams turn trainwreck when they walked out on the floor, it happens, does that mean I'm a bad coach or does that mean it was a bad day? Do I need to be bumped down a level or punished by USASF? No, it means an accident happened and I will prepare them better in the future. If you as a coach have never had a trainwreck ( I do believe there are different levels of trainwrecks ) you haven't been coaching long enough.

I 100% understand what people are saying, there are gyms out there that just don't get it. They don't use common sense, don't use proper progressions, don't regulate rules, etc. etc. I'm sorry people, it is never your or anyone outside of that's programs business. For me, it's better for my business. I can put my focus on others or focus on what I can control.

As far as USASF "credentialing" athletes, I don't think that makes much sense either (at this time) USASF has many other things they need to focus on (#1 IMO is making their coaches credentialing a hands on system to PROVE that coach knows what they are doing, but that's a whole different thread).
Here is what I could see the backlash of this being - You have a girl that can't throw a full or even a jump to back but you have a backspot get hurt and you NEED her, but you can't use her bc she is not "credentialed" level 5. No, she's a badA** backspot and I want her but now USASF says I can't. ---Careful what you wish for.

I'm not for "credentialing" athletes, I think skills progress as they progress and if it is done once a year, you have the potential of discouraging athletes that have the capabilities to move on. I will even agree with you and say sometimes teams have a bad day, however, I'm not talking about "bad day" I'm talking about "catastrophic day". This level 4 team scored a 56 out of 82, I can honestly say I have no idea how many deductions that translated into. Now, it could have been they had a flu epidemic and that coach had no idea but, if I was watching my team that usually "hits" turn into flying ammunition I would prefer the judges stop the music. If this is about not wanting to embarass anyone, I find stopping the music no more embarassing than watching kids face plant one after another. I do see your concern when it comes to over-regulating but, in these unique situations (and they are few and far between), I'm all for a little intervention for the safety of the kids.

 

[Rudags]

I'm sorry people, it is never your or anyone outside of that's programs business. For me, it's better for my business. I can put my focus on others or focus on what I can control.

I agree with your post except for this. I think it is our business. This gym is too far away from my gym for me to make it a "better business" situation. I was in the warmup room and these kids were falling all over themselves. I was seriously worried. My team lost out on a FULL MINUTE on the tumbling floor because we had to wait for a stretcher to move across our floor.

 

[viralscorp]

I don't expect judges to police it. It would be much the same as calling out a gym that is cheating. If I am at a comp and see a team that clearly shouldn't be competing at that level, I report them and then the USASF checks each athlete that competed and makes sure they were all credentialed to that level. If not, they pay a hefty fine or are banned for an amount of time...Something along those lines.

If you are saying a level 3 athlete can take the floor with a higher level team but only do level 3 skills, then it is more involved than just checking names on a list. Someone would need to identify the athlete of question in each skill he/she performs. This requires picture ID, video recording at every event, and somewhat long term storage of hours and hours of videos - which need to be taken close enough to the stage to identify each individual athlete.

Also, if the gyms are responsible for their athlete credentialing, then this system won't work at all as the sketchy coaches will just arbitrarily decide what level to credential their athletes at. So now we are also requiring independent credentialing for every single athlete. We can barely get all coaches certified, and judging is not certified - I still am not sure how this could ever work.

Perhaps we could find a solution that could be more easily implemented into systems we already have in place.
(Ideas I haven't really thought about at all: )
Deductions which increase exponentially until they result in a DQ?
A large generic safety deduction which is reported to and reviewed by someone (USASF?) and then a hefty fine or ban?
A judging system where the difficulty score only includes elements completed safely?
Some letter which must be signed by the parent/guardian of each athlete who receives one of these huge deductions?