All-Star Too Many Competitions

[tumbleyoda]

There is a world of difference between sponsoring and hosting an event. ALL major sporting events have sponsors. But when was the last time you saw a high school basketball team win a state championship HOSTED by Reebok? Sponsorship helps the business because they get free advertising--and helps the event because a profitable company pays for the high cost, while a different, non-profit-gaining group takes care of fairness and regulations.

I'm just going to say it...so I'm prepared for the blasting I'm going to get: If you're an event producer, the way you make money is by having a LOT of athletes sign up for your competition. Not a lot of gyms, not a lot of teams. A lot of athletes--since that's how the current system works. We pay by athlete, not gym or team. Soooooo...if you have 15 gyms come to your competition (wouldn't that be nice?:rolleyes:) and one brings 52 kids and one brings 652 kids...a good business decision would be to have that GIANT gym take home some trophies, no? Because you sure want that 652-kid gym coming back next year. Suddenly we have a not-so-fair judging process...and THIS is why people say this isn't a sport. People who determine results should not be profitting from a competition. So now take another look at our biggest "National" events--they are FILLED with huge, big name gyms. Not saying AT ALL that those gyms aren't talented, awesome, etc., but doesn't it speak volumes for our sport when the very people profitting the MOST from the number of people coming to their competitions are also the same people deciding who gets the bids? Those decisions should be made by one group of people who don't stand to gain anything by who they pick as winners.

But I digress...back to topic. YES, there are too many competitions...:)

Your point has been argued many times in the past. I still have the wounds to prove it....lol. But fixing the jusging process is a different thing than addressing too many competitions.

This is why I suggested in the past that the judging aspect be totally removed from USASF or the event producers. One organization trains and certifies judges, EP requests them (not who but simply judges - this removes favoritism from this area as well) from USASF. This is a criteria of the USASF sanction. USASF requests from the judging organization for a USASF sanctioned competition. Judging organization selects judges based on experieince, training, cost to EP, availibility, etc. EP submits any issues particular to their company to the judging company in enough time for them to forward them to the judges assigned to the event to study. Judges meet with EP before the event to make sure all are clear.

If there are judging issues at the event a formal complaint is filed with the judging organization and USASF. If proved, that judge is retrained, suspended or not sent out by the judging organization to further competitions. Likewise if judges are pressured by EP to adjust scores to favor any team/program they can file complaint with USASF. If proven that EP loses sanction for certain events for a certain time or if bad enough permenantly. It is not perfect and requires more steps but it would go a long way to address most judging issues.

 

[hopskipandjump]

coming from me, a person who has been an event producer and gave it all up for the joys and stresses of owning an all star gym instead; most of you have no idea HOW MUCH MONEY IT COSTS TO PUT ON A QUALITY EVENT. And let me tell you something else, not many of your gyms give new companies a shot at making it. Many place "Varsity" brands NCA event as the gold standard of cheer results even though the owner testified that cheer really wasn't a sport to be sanctioned in college. Yeah, that's a great pick. Different competition companies, like all star teams, have a place in this business. You don't like all the competitions?? Don't go to them. Simple. And these companies shouldn't profit?? Seriously? It takes ton of work and time to run a competition company. Lots of behinds to kiss too. And I take it that your all star gym should not make a profit? Think really think about what you are saying. I am not taking my teams to Jamfest Indy, Cheersport, Atlanta, NCA, Dallas because my kids' parents can't afford it. Does that mean we should not compete??? Thank God we have several excellent competition companies in our backyard. I don't care what they call their events. We get to compete. Sometimes we get to win and call ourselves national champions. Who cares if it is making our kids feel good. Isn't that what we all want???

 

[hopskipandjump]

sorry, but this topic really gets my blood boiling. Not to mention the teams who never pay you.

 

[MissCongeniality]

Do the event producers make the $ off the admission parents/family/friends pay to watch? I have noticed lately that every competition seems to have gone "Cash Only" and there is no receipt that you paid, no register used to ring you up etc. So....at the end of the day are EP's claiming ALL of this money or ??? I'm thinking that if my team doesn't get first place

I'm calling the IRS! (And yes I'm being sarcastic about the 1st place thing, but seriously doesn't it seem a bit odd that there seems to be NO accountability for admission income?)

 

[Just-a-Mom]

coming from me, a person who has been an event producer and gave it all up for the joys and stresses of owning an all star gym instead; most of you have no idea HOW MUCH MONEY IT COSTS TO PUT ON A QUALITY EVENT. And let me tell you something else, not many of your gyms give new companies a shot at making it. Many place "Varsity" brands NCA event as the gold standard of cheer results even though the owner testified that cheer really wasn't a sport to be sanctioned in college. Yeah, that's a great pick. Different competition companies, like all star teams, have a place in this business. You don't like all the competitions?? Don't go to them. Simple. And these companies shouldn't profit?? Seriously? It takes ton of work and time to run a competition company. Lots of behinds to kiss too. And I take it that your all star gym should not make a profit? Think really think about what you are saying. I am not taking my teams to Jamfest Indy, Cheersport, Atlanta, NCA, Dallas because my kids' parents can't afford it. Does that mean we should not compete??? Thank God we have several excellent competition companies in our backyard. I don't care what they call their events. We get to compete. Sometimes we get to win and call ourselves national champions. Who cares if it is making our kids feel good. Isn't that what we all want???

Whoa! I totally never said these companies shouldn't profit. I said they shouldn't exist. Different. But since they do exist of course they should profit. I just don't think they should get to use their own judges. The judging needs to be more fair, and less tied to profit--or it's not really judging. And how good can a kid feel when they lose every week so someone can make money???

And yes, you should compete. But I still stand by what I said. It's NOT a national championship if the same company is holding 8 of them in different parts of the country. It's a regional championship. Just by definition...so I do care what they call it. You don't get to just make up definitions for things because it draws more people. And I think you'd be surprised, but no...I don't think it's actually making our kids feel good. My kids HATE it when they get jackets that say "National Champion" when they're NOT.

If you don't want to spend the money to go far away to a national championship, then don't. But that doesn't mean that they should be held all over the country. Like I said before, who else does that??? Get some sponsors to pay for your trip like every other sport in the country.

My name is "Just-a-Mom" for a reason--because that's all I am. I'm not rich, I don't own a gym, I don't coach. I only know if there really was truly only ONE Nationals we were going to each year I'd make gosh darned sure I found a way to get there.

***And fwiw I used to put together events for a living. Not cheerleading ones, but city ones (eg. festivals). So actually I have a pretty good idea how much it costs, and I know it's not cheap. This is why I know so much about sponsorship--that's where 90% our funding came from. And this is why I genuinely think it benefits the EP to "reward" those spending the big bucks to be there, so they can continue making money. If that's how we want our sport/activity to be run, then so be it. But it just makes those "National Champion" titles even more meaningless.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

People who determine results should not be profitting from a competition.

Just to clarify...I assume this is the part of my post that got you so upset. What I mean by this is that the people profitting shouldn't be determining results. NOT that they shouldn't profit.

 

[cheermuse]

I like that there is a variety of cheer competition companies. You can easily pick the ones that arent worth the time of day. This business is all about supply & demand for the masses.

 

[MissCongeniality]

Whoa! I totally never said these companies shouldn't profit. I said they shouldn't exist. Different. But since they do exist of course they should profit. I just don't think they should get to use their own judges. The judging needs to be more fair, and less tied to profit--or it's not really judging. And how good can a kid feel when they lose every week so someone can make money???

And yes, you should compete. But I still stand by what I said. It's NOT a national championship if the same company is holding 8 of them in different parts of the country. It's a regional championship. Just by definition...so I do care what they call it. You don't get to just make up definitions for things because it draws more people. And I think you'd be surprised, but no...I don't think it's actually making our kids feel good. My kids HATE it when they get jackets that say "National Champion" when they're NOT.

If you don't want to spend the money to go far away to a national championship, then don't. But that doesn't mean that they should be held all over the country. Like I said before, who else does that??? Get some sponsors to pay for your trip like every other sport in the country.

My name is "Just-a-Mom" for a reason--because that's all I am. I'm not rich, I don't own a gym, I don't coach. I only know if there really was truly only ONE Nationals we were going to each year I'd make gosh darned sure I found a way to get there.

***And fwiw I used to put together events for a living. Not cheerleading ones, but city ones (eg. festivals). So actually I have a pretty good idea how much it costs, and I know it's not cheap. This is why I know so much about sponsorship--that's where 90% our funding came from. And this is why I genuinely think it benefits the EP to "reward" those spending the big bucks to be there, so they can continue making money. If that's how we want our sport/activity to be run, then so be it. But it just makes those "National Champion" titles even more meaningless.

I agree with you! It may not be ALL EPs who do this, but I have seen some pretty blatant examples of what appears to be favoritism towards those bringing 1000s of athetes vs those bringing their grand total of 50 athletes! As a parent when I have to start questioning whether our team really deserved 1st place versus whether the EP is just trying to keep our owners happy, I have to start questioning this whole sport.

 

[newcheerdad]

I like that there is a variety of cheer competition companies. You can easily pick the ones that arent worth the time of day. This business is all about supply & demand for the masses.

And I don't think anyone's suggesting that these cheer competition companies should go away. On the contrary.

Where I referee soccer, for example, there are a variety of tournaments every year that one can attend - some of them better run than others, some with greater participation than others. But there's only one state tournament, one regional tournament, one national tournament sponsored by U.S. Youth Soccer. The same should hold true for cheer. The USASF should be the ones involved in sanctioning "official" state, regional and national cheer competitions. And yeah, I know there are the Cheerleading Worlds, but the process of getting a bid to Worlds (and who can give out bids) is so convoluted sometimes it makes my head hurt.

 

[MissBee]

Basically what everyone is saying they want (regionals sponsored by the EPs and then 1 single Nationals) is already in place, we just use different names for it. We're calling these regional event "nationals" and giving away Worlds bids at them. The "National" event everyone wants....that's what we call "Worlds". Sure, there are a handful of teams from other countries there, but at this point in the game-they aren't contenders for the top placements in the big divisions.

 

[hopskipandjump]

My gym is non profit. I get no money at all from my gym. I am not paid a salary, nor is anyone else at my gym. I am not rich and in fact, because my gym is set up this way, I often am putting my money into the gym. My parents have done and do more fundraisers than I can count. So I am quite offended by your comment of "Get some sponsors to pay for your trip like every other sport in the country." Kind of high and mighty aren't you Just a Mom. So glad that you can take your children wherever they want to go. My parents can't. But we do have choices. Thank God. Because you are "just a mom", you probably don't realize that most competition companies don't have a staff of judges who judge exclusively for their competitions. They may use the same people over and over, but most judges will judge for any company. And who do you think runs the USASF??? People with ownerships in cheer companies. They benefit too. Should they pick the judges?? What if it benefits their own teams???
This thread is about too many competitions. And this business is run pretty much by 2 companies. Jam Brands and Varsity Brands. Pretty soon, you get rid of those smaller IEP companies, then your competition costs will skyrocket and this will become an exclusionary sport.
Go to the competitions you want. But do not restrict the availability of companies to hold them. Btw, new cheer dad, USASF does rank and rate competitions. As owners, we know how competitions rank on the spectrum.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

Wow...you were able to find that sentence but not the other ones? Its like you only read half my post.
1. I can NOT take my kids anywhere they want. Since you seem so keen on telling me what i do and don't know, you have no idea the sacrifices i make to keep my kids in cheer. We sure don't go everywhere we want--sometimes we can barely go to the grocery store!
2. I actually do know that each company doesn't have their own set of judges. But i also know that the certification to be a judge isn't exactly difficult or unified. I guess you think "mom" means uneducated...since being just a mom automatically means i don't know this(your words not mine). As a mom that spends 50% of her income on this sport i have been trying to get to know this business inside out so i know where my money is going.
3. My comment to get some sponsors wasn't meant for you personally. It was a general statement directed at everyone. Your gym being nonprofit is all the more reason to get them actually. I was just pointing out we are one of very few sports that expects parents and gym to pay for all of their own competing at a national level without any outside help.
3. My daughters' first gym was a very small nonprofit one. I was one of the most "fundraising-est" people there, so i know about fundraising. Which goes back to my statement that i would do whatever it took to get them to one nationals.
4. Back to the 50% of my income...its my right when Im spending that kind of money on something to question things i don't like. Expressing my opinion on a message board doesn't make me "high and mighty". And just because i disagree with you doesn't make me (or you) wrong. Nor does it mean i don't know things (since almost everything you've said to me starts with "what you don't know is..."). I might just have a different take on things.
Lastly, i have actually tried to take some of what you've said in. But when everything you say is buried in hostility and rudeness (calling me high and mighty doesn't exactly make me want to make me hear you out)...your point gets lost. And before you say that this subject is just something you feel strongly about and that's why its ok to talk that way...please try to remember that i might feel just as strongly--i just see it differently.

 

[hopskipandjump]

1. Someone didn't read my post. In my post above when I start the sentence my gym is non profit where I am speaking to Just A Mom where i say "what you don't know is..." Oh can't find it? I didn't type that.
2. I did indeed take it personally about "some sponsors." After all, you quoted my reply. so which part of the paragraph was directed at everyone: "If you don't want to spend the money to go far away to a national championship, then don't. But that doesn't mean that they should be held all over the country. Like I said before, who else does that??? Get some sponsors to pay for your trip like every other sport in the country." Who was that directed to? If not me, then who, since again, you quoted my reply, who was it to?
3. It is your opinion and mine. And you are entitled to it, but when you quote my statements and respond to them, then you are speaking to me. Giving ME your opinion about what I wrote. And I am answering. I do have a tendency to become hostile when I get insulted.
4. I am a mom too and never implied you were uneducated. Whereas you stated: "I guess you think "mom" means uneducated...since being just a mom automatically means i don't know this (your words not mine}", I say find it. Find where I said that. You are the one who stated "My name is "Just-a-Mom" for a reason--because that's all I am. I'm not rich, I don't own a gym, I don't coach. " I said because you were just a mom, you PROBABLY don't know.....
And to clarify, I stated this because YOU said you were not rich, don't own a gym, don't coach, etc., and the impression you gave was that you did not have the same information as gym owners (although how owning a gym equates to being rich, I will never know), and coaches that you really didn't know that most competition companies don't have a staff of judges.

 

[FamousxMindset]

All of this sounds like a bad idea to me. The main thing I prefer about allstar over hs is that we have more than three comps a year. I understand that any and every cheer comp hosted by Joe richard and Harry shouldnt be considered a nationals. I think along with other comps we should have state, regional, and supernationals. That the top three from the state, the top three from regional,then they will compete at supernationals. But most likely there will be no level five teams because a real nationals tittle dosent hold a candle to NCA, Worlds, or cheeersport.

 

[ACEDAD]

And I don't think anyone's suggesting that these cheer competition companies should go away.

Actually the suggestion that they shouldn't exist has specifically been made. More than once.

As to having one Nationals: are the suggestions for one, period? Or one per EP? Because I'm pretty sure that a great many (not sure I can say most) EP's only have one Nationals. I know for sure that Cheersport, UCA and NCA only have one Nationals.

If you don't like the EP's that have more than one; don't go. If enough gyms don't attend, they'll change or cease to exist. If tons of gyms around the country like going to those events, then they'll stay in business. And, so what?

Some of the things mentioned here really need to be worked on and actually are being worked on by USASF committees. But it doesn't happen overnight.