All-Star Top 3 Means, Top 3 For Everyone

[youbetterwork]

I would love to do a study on how allstar cheerleading has blown up the way it has, but if I had to point to one thing I would say it was.... tumbling.

Why tumbling?

Tumbling is not a skill you can not really start or learn later in life. Yes we all have heard or know stories of people learning skills at 15 and being level 5 in 2 months, but in general tumbling takes years for females to acquire. The US had a high school cheer system creating demand for this tumbling even before allstar was anything (think 20 years ago). In fact I think Cheer Athletics began as a tumbling class in a field? I imagine that was for High School cheering (but BlueCat can confirm or deny). So people could build gyms to teach tumbling for cheerleading, no allstars required (or really worth anything at that moment). That is the basis for allstar cheer. All these tumbling gyms then had the athletes and infrastructure to hold private competitions.

Internationally it has gone completely differently. There are no gyms or tumbling classes to even closely resemble what happens in the Us. There is no steady income to create these gyms. There is no backbone to build an industry on. So UNTIL tumbling becomes important and people create gyms to teach kids tumbling to build international industries and an international infrastructure all the other countries will lag behind. That is why making tumbling not worth anything on an international scoresheet doesnt HELP anyone. Short term gains for long term detriments.

PS - This is why the importance of tumbling to allstar cheerleading should NEVER be diminished (aka made worth less than stunting or anything else). The industry is built on tumbling classes. Make all skills in cheer worth the same and you always have a reason for a gym to have tumbling classes.

Interesting reading. Really! Thank you.

 

[BlueCat]

I'm not convinced that the non-us teams could not put more emphasis on tumbling in the future. It isn't
An issue for non-us gymnastics programs who can certainly hang with the US.

The frustration from our point of view is that we are moving from a balanced scoresheets that favorrs the all-round team and moving towards one that is much more skewed towards non-tumbling elements. ordinarily, that wouldn't Be a tremendous issue, but a major part of our gyms are the tumbling classes.

This was eluded to, but thinking that changing the focus of the scoresheets will all of a sudden mean that stingrays, top gun, and CA won't be able to keep up is naive, I feel. I feel pretty confident that those programs will adjust quickly. (maybe not this year because of the timing of scoresheets release, but going forward.)

 

[FamousxMindset]

well who decides what is worth more on the mat?? why is it fair for a USA score sheet to be forced upon other nations who may have historically had a much stronger focus on other skills? who's to say tumbling should be worth anything at all, just because the USA has made cheering a very tumbling focused aspect of a routine, why should the rest of the world follow that?

this is playing devils advocate btw

The fact that this cheerleading, and major part of it is tumbling, and because they chose to participate in USA based competition. Why should USA teams be punished because they are good at ALL aspects of cheer.

Btw i hope this dosent sound rude, its not meant to be

 

[cheeeeer93]

Good point... But there isn't any changing of rules here. Just some adaptations. US is probably the only country with good enough facilities to be that good at tumbling. European teams will never ever be better at tumbling. Not now, not in 20 years. We will always have a big disadvantage. The adapations makes it a closer competition in some few divisions.
Btw, tried really hard to make a reference to the bobsledding example, but it didn't turn out that good... Lol.

One question! Is/was people upset about the scoresheets for ICU Worlds? Since they are rewarding stunting a lot more than tumbling. (Sorry for getting out of subject, this thread wasn't about the scoresheets... Just thought about it when I looked at the scoresheets a minute ago.)

Hopefully this does not come off as rude but the facilities really should not stop international teams.
Think about it, a lot of the best gyms in the US started without a practice space at all. I've seen videos of WC Shooting Stars practicing on wrestling mats in the late 90's I believe? These facilities don't just appear out of no where. A lot of coaches spend years working towards owning a gym and often times put their entire life savings into it. If owners, coaches, and athletes push themselves to become a force to be reckoned with on the international level, they can do it. Honestly, the level of dedication, heart, and passion for the sport is really one of the biggest reasons allstar cheer has evolved so much.

Plus, the US isn't necessarily the only top team in Olympic gymnastics. So there is obviously some sort of basis for tumbling there. It's not like we are the only country who knows what tumbling is.

If you'd like some insight to US cheer and how it really works on the inside (at the gym and all) to help out your program I'd be happy to talk (:

 

[youbetterwork]

Hopefully this does not come off as rude but the facilities really should not stop international teams.
Think about it, a lot of the best gyms in the US started without a practice space at all. I've seen videos of WC Shooting Stars practicing on wrestling mats in the late 90's I believe? These facilities don't just appear out of no where. A lot of coaches spend years working towards owning a gym and often times put their entire life savings into it. If owners, coaches, and athletes push themselves to become a force to be reckoned with on the international level, they can do it. Honestly, the level of dedication, heart, and passion for the sport is really one of the biggest reasons allstar cheer has evolved so much.

Plus, the US isn't necessarily the only top team in Olympic gymnastics. So there is obviously some sort of basis for tumbling there. It's not like we are the only country who knows what tumbling is.

If you'd like some insight to US cheer and how it really works on the inside (at the gym and all) to help out your program I'd be happy to talk :)

Yeah yeah, I know. The thing is, we don't have enough cheerleaders to have cheerleading gyms. The scandinavian countries are small (Sweden 9 millions) and we have around 3000 cheerleaders spread around the country. Most programs are about 100 people. But as you say, the US cheer gyms go around because of the tumbling classes (which I didn't know!). In Sweden there are gyms for gymnastics, because it's quite big, so if a cheerleading/gymnastic gym would open it could go around.

I would love to hear that! I'll message you!

 

[flipmac]

here is another view point.... kenya send its best 3 long distance runners to the olympics and they place 1 2 and 3 on the podium... what happens if they start sending their best 10? odds are the best 10 are still better than the 4th place finish and they will continue to take positions 1 2 and 3...

are you happier 10 people got to show their talent or had a chance at the podium? either way kenya places 1 2 and 3... or do you watch the race to see if another country/nation can manage to knock them off? give them a run for their money? kenya has historically always won this event...

i hope everyone see's the parallels here

 

[Deleted member 15]

here is another view point.... kenya send its best 3 long distance runners to the olympics and they place 1 2 and 3 on the podium... what happens if they start sending their best 10? odds are the best 10 are still better than the 4th place finish and they will continue to take positions 1 2 and 3...

are you happier 10 people got to show their talent or had a chance at the podium? either way kenya places 1 2 and 3... or do you watch the race to see if another country/nation can manage to knock them off? give them a run for their money? kenya has historically always won this event...

i hope everyone see's the parallels here

I'd rather see the best people compete, regardless of which country they call home.

 

[King]

here is another view point.... kenya send its best 3 long distance runners to the olympics and they place 1 2 and 3 on the podium... what happens if they start sending their best 10? odds are the best 10 are still better than the 4th place finish and they will continue to take positions 1 2 and 3...

are you happier 10 people got to show their talent or had a chance at the podium? either way kenya places 1 2 and 3... or do you watch the race to see if another country/nation can manage to knock them off? give them a run for their money? kenya has historically always won this event...

i hope everyone see's the parallels here

What if Kenyans that would place 4th - 6th get cut from the Kenyan team and go run for Iceland. Oh wait... thats pretty much what happens. Who cares! Talent is talent. I want to see the most talented compete against the most talented.

 

[cheeeeer93]

Yeah yeah, I know. The thing is, we don't have enough cheerleaders to have cheerleading gyms. The scandinavian countries are small (Sweden 9 millions) and we have around 3000 cheerleaders spread around the country. Most programs are about 100 people. But as you say, the US cheer gyms go around because of the tumbling classes (which I didn't know!). In Sweden there are gyms for gymnastics, because it's quite big, so if a cheerleading/gymnastic gym would open it could go around.

I would love to hear that! I'll message you!

Did you message me? Because I didn't get anything haha

 

[flipmac]

I'd rather see the best people compete, regardless of which country they call home.

so your saying you'd be fine seeing USA place 15th because kenya sent its 14 best, there is not one ounce of you that would think thats a little unfair they get to send so many knowing their going to win anyway....

you need to really take yourself out of a USA viewpoint and truly see what and outsiders see's looking in

im really playing devils advocate here, trying to get someone to see a different point of view

 

[Deleted member 15]

so your saying you'd be fine seeing USA place 15th because kenya sent its 14 best, there is not one ounce of you that would think thats a little unfair they get to send so many knowing their going to win anyway....

I prefer seeing the best people place the highest. If that means the US gets 15th then the US gets 15th.

Also, the Olympic example is a little different than Cheerleading Worlds. Even though the example limited who made it to the Olympics, the best people at the Olympics placed the highest. At the Cheerleading Worlds we have that score lower than other teams at the event rank higher because they are from a different country.

 

[CheernerdDC]

I think it needs to be a percentage of the teams and not just 3 teams. There are a lot of good teams that will not make it to Finals again.

 

[BlueCat]

here is another view point.... kenya send its best 3 long distance runners to the olympics and they place 1 2 and 3 on the podium... what happens if they start sending their best 10? odds are the best 10 are still better than the 4th place finish and they will continue to take positions 1 2 and 3...

are you happier 10 people got to show their talent or had a chance at the podium? either way kenya places 1 2 and 3... or do you watch the race to see if another country/nation can manage to knock them off? give them a run for their money? kenya has historically always won this event...

i hope everyone see's the parallels here

In the Olympics, like the ICU, athletes are actually representing their country. Athletes there don't wear the jerseys of their private clubs, they wear the uniform of their country. Using countries as a discriminating factor somewhat makes sense in the Olympics. Worlds, in this case, is more the like the Boston Marathon where the competitors aren't specifically representing any country and as many as meet the qualifying standard are allowed to compete. If the top 50 best marathoners in the race were all Kenyans, then I would certainly expect them to place 1-50. I wouldn't give out an American the 4th place medal in the race because we wanted the Americans to be able to "catch up" to the Kenyans. I also wouldn't give out 4th to a Ukrainian runner because his flight was the most expensive.

 

[King]

I will use an extreme example. What is to stop me from taking Rust (Rays open 6 team) to Mexico and compete as a team form Mexico? (ignore money and passports)

 

[King]

I will use an extreme example. What is to stop me from taking Rust (Rays open 6 team) to Mexico and compete as a team form Mexico? (ignore money and passports)

besides my typos