All-Star Top 3 Means, Top 3 For Everyone

[*Becky*Stars*]

I would love to do a study on how allstar cheerleading has blown up the way it has, but if I had to point to one thing I would say it was.... tumbling.

Why tumbling?

Tumbling is not a skill you can not really start or learn later in life. Yes we all have heard or know stories of people learning skills at 15 and being level 5 in 2 months, but in general tumbling takes years for females to acquire. The US had a high school cheer system creating demand for this tumbling even before allstar was anything (think 20 years ago). In fact I think Cheer Athletics began as a tumbling class in a field? I imagine that was for High School cheering (but BlueCat can confirm or deny). So people could build gyms to teach tumbling for cheerleading, no allstars required (or really worth anything at that moment). That is the basis for allstar cheer. All these tumbling gyms then had the athletes and infrastructure to hold private competitions.

Internationally it has gone completely differently. There are no gyms or tumbling classes to even closely resemble what happens in the Us. There is no steady income to create these gyms. There is no backbone to build an industry on. So UNTIL tumbling becomes important and people create gyms to teach kids tumbling to build international industries and an international infrastructure all the other countries will lag behind. That is why making tumbling not worth anything on an international scoresheet doesnt HELP anyone. Short term gains for long term detriments.

PS - This is why the importance of tumbling to allstar cheerleading should NEVER be diminished (aka made worth less than stunting or anything else). The industry is built on tumbling classes. Make all skills in cheer worth the same and you always have a reason for a gym to have tumbling classes.

In the UK my team has been trying to incorporate tumble classes and yes they have taken off. But one problem we dont have the facilities to teach any more than a BHS possibly back tuck for the lads. We have 4 rolled up mats and the rest are rubbish gym mats that dont stick together, we also have to share the hall with a junior team, due to limited time we can use the hall for. There are very few coaches in gyms in the UK that can teach level 5 tumbling skills, i am the only one in my gym. Teaching tumble skills to a whole program on my own with little equipment is very hard. The program is trying to put plans together for a purpose built gym with atleast a sprung floor and then eventually enough space for tumble tracks and fast tracks etc. But this is proving very hard to get the money for it. All our countries funding for sport is going into football and rugby. Cheerleading is not considered as any kind of sport over here, it is seen as just prancing around with pom poms wearing next to nothing infront of old men. Totally not what real cheerleading is about!! If we had half the money football and rugby got from funding cheerleading in the UK would see a very big improvement.

I feel that if teams from the UK actually did well at worlds the country would be willing to put more money into it, therefore more equipment to teach tumbling and increase scores and hopefully getting somewhere along the lines of US teams one day.

How do gyms in the US eventually end up with their many gyms all over the country? I.e how do they get the money to do that?

I would love someone to give us the money to carry out the plan we have for our cheer gym, but right know only winning the Lottery i think would help :(

 

[*Becky*Stars*]

In the Olympics, like the ICU, athletes are actually representing their country. Athletes there don't wear the jerseys of their private clubs, they wear the uniform of their country. Using countries as a discriminating factor somewhat makes sense in the Olympics. Worlds, in this case, is more the like the Boston Marathon where the competitors aren't specifically representing any country and as many as meet the qualifying standard are allowed to compete. If the top 50 best marathoners in the race were all Kenyans, then I would certainly expect them to place 1-50. I wouldn't give out an American the 4th place medal in the race because we wanted the Americans to be able to "catch up" to the Kenyans. I also wouldn't give out 4th to a Ukrainian runner because his flight was the most expensive.

Why dont we have comps in our own countries like 'worlds trials' that pick out the 3 teams who score the highest, to send to worlds. So each country sends 3 teams to worlds and then they all compete against each other and whoever places say top 10 compets in finals.

This is kind off how they do it for Sports acro and power tumbling worlds. Only they send only 2 i think from each country.

 

[King]

Why dont we have comps in our own countries like 'worlds trials' that pick out the 3 teams who score the highest, to send to worlds. So each country sends 3 teams to worlds and then they all compete against each other and whoever places say top 10 compets in finals.

This is kind off how they do it for Sports acro and power tumbling worlds. Only they send only 2 i think from each country.

But they do, that is what the ICU is for. I think the difference between Worlds and ICU is: The ICU is for the single best from each country to compete. One team per country (per division).

Worlds is for the best CLUBS to compete, no matter the location. So why there is a country limit on Clubs doesnt make sense.

 

[Ashley]

I think the Top 3 thing is just fair. . .coming from the International [literally] point of view.
No offense, but i think the division was created to
1. cater athletes who can't compete due to age limit
2. allow cheerleading worlds/allstar cheer to venture all over the world. I mean it's cheerleading "WORLDS" right?

Non US countries can also cheer and are challenged to "soon" keep up with US Cheer. . . if you add more teams to qualify for the Finals - that would surely favor the US teams . . .i know there are a lot of reli excellent teams from the US but u also have to consider that coming to Worlds would cost some countries a fortune . . . it's reli expensive. So i think it would only be fair for some countries to have a fair fight with the US teams to qualify for the Finals. And just to be in the finals would totally pay off all the expenses, hardwork and effort . . .even just that. . . even JUST qualifying for Finals would change the lives of the Non US athletes. . .

I like this. We don't have one true US National Competition - even college has two big ones. So this way it's truly a way to pick the top 3 US teams for example and compete them against the top 3 teams from other countried. It's a way to truly make it an international competition. Instead of a ton of US teams vs. a couple of other random international teams that probably won't ever come close to winning.

 

[Emily Jane]

Just something I'd like to throw into the mix: What if worlds wasn't held in America every year (location changed every year like gymnastics worlds do), at least for the international divisions? Would the American teams who aren't realistically going to make top 3 go? Would this eliminate the need for top 3 because the costs would discourage those teams?

N/B: This is hypothetical of course - I know it won't actually happen, I'm just interested in if peoples opinions would change and if they would, how.

 

[BlueCat]

Your hypothetical would probably depend on where you would have it. If it were in Canada or Mexico, you would get fewer American teams, but the "main" ones would still go. If it were anywhere else, hardly any US teams in any division would go if they had to pay significantly more than they do now. They would just go to NCA and feel like that was their "Worlds".

 

[ztaprincess]

Just something I'd like to throw into the mix: What if worlds wasn't held in America every year (location changed every year like gymnastics worlds do), at least for the international divisions? Would the American teams who aren't realistically going to make top 3 go? Would this eliminate the need for top 3 because the costs would discourage those teams?

N/B: This is hypothetical of course - I know it won't actually happen, I'm just interested in if peoples opinions would change and if they would, how.

Since most teams competeing at worlds are US teams I don't think many US teams would go at all if it were held someone else (except Canada or Mexico). Yeah the International divisions have teams from other countries but the other club divisions rarely have non US teams in the divisions. So it would cost out the butt for all those US teams which makes up most of worlds to go to another country to compete against teams from the US. They could do all that here for a fraction of the price. Now I understand that the true international teams have to spend out the butt to come over here to compete, but If it was the other way around I feel like the only divisions that would be at worlds would be the International divisions because there would be no teams to fill the others.

Now as for the ICU i do think they should alternate countries since it is just 1 team per country competeing it would be fair that way.

I honestly think that the rankings should go by who is the best, not based on country. How is it fair that a team from Ethiopia, who scored wayyyyyy lower than the 4th place US team , gets to advance to finals because they are the only team from Ethiopia? Sure they paid a lot to come here and compete, but those US teams have worked their butts off all season to come to worlds and win just like they have. How can one be called a world champ when they aren't competing agianst the best of the best?

 

[socratesofcheer]

But they do, that is what the ICU is for. I think the difference between Worlds and ICU is: The ICU is for the single best from each country to compete. One team per country (per division).

Worlds is for the best CLUBS to compete, no matter the location. So why there is a country limit on Clubs doesnt make sense.

What other team sports' international competition is conducted the way worlds is?

I know in the Olympics and the world championships for Olympic sports there are a certain number of teams/individuals allowed to enter the competition. As stated previously, this is the way the ICU is set up. But, what other world caliber event is set up for clubs as oppose to countries?

 

[j3r4h]

I honestly think that the rankings should go by who is the best, not based on country. How is it fair that a team from Ethiopia, who scored wayyyyyy lower than the 4th place US team , gets to advance to finals because they are the only team from Ethiopia? Sure they paid a lot to come here and compete, but those US teams have worked their butts off all season to come to worlds and win just like they have. How can one be called a world champ when they aren't competing agianst the best of the best?

IMO . . .which is why 3 best of the best from US will advance to FINALS . . . i mean 3 . . . that's alredi a lot . . . and How is it fair [no offense to US teams] to the International Division and all the countries competing if this division is to be another division where only US teams will advance to Finals? [since no team from Ethiopia/Mexico can outscore all the US teams] . .. can USASF call it Level 6 Division instead of making it International Division?. . .coz it wont make sense for Non-US teams to compete coz they wont even outscore/touch the US teams . . . to be realistic. . .might as well discourage them no tot go since in the end . .. only the US teams will advance to Finals. . .?

Cheer is for everyone . . . ICU is one place for all the countries to unite in one sport where everyone in the WORLD can play. Yes, US teams have worked their butss off all season to come to worlds . . . but NON US TEAMS work as much as the US teams. . . and Worlds is alredi expensive for US teams . . . it is 5x more expensive for NON US Teams . . . .

Not trying to attack anyone. . . just a thought . . . . Retain Top 3 . . . if US teams have the best in the division . . .then they better pray they get into that 3 precious spots. . .if they don't . . then . . . next year . . maybe. . . just as that . . . .

 

[King]

What other team sports' international competition is conducted the way worlds is?

I know in the Olympics and the world championships for Olympic sports there are a certain number of teams/individuals allowed to enter the competition. As stated previously, this is the way the ICU is set up. But, what other world caliber event is set up for clubs as oppose to countries?

Well, from what I gather it is a lot like cycling. Cycling is about the closest you can come to the 'Worlds / cheerleading gym" relationship.

Cyclists race on teams. These teams 'sorta' represent their country. Team Radio Shack (who had Lance Armstrong) who won all those years in a row was a US team. They don't compete for the US specifically, but are known as a US team. MUCH how Cheer Athletics or Stingrays are American gyms but don't specifically represent the US. The Tour De France doesnt limit teams entering based on what country the team originates from, but based on talent. If the top 50 teams happen to come from Romania... well then all the competitors in that race would be from Romania. Country of origen does not matter.

Why would it matter in cheer?

 

[King]

IMO . . .which is why 3 best of the best from US will advance to FINALS . . . i mean 3 . . . that's alredi a lot . . . and How is it fair [no offense to US teams] to the International Division and all the countries competing if this division is to be another division where only US teams will advance to Finals? [since no team from Ethiopia/Mexico can outscore all the US teams] . .. can USASF call it Level 6 Division instead of making it International Division?. . .coz it wont make sense for Non-US teams to compete coz they wont even outscore/touch the US teams . . . to be realistic. . .might as well discourage them no tot go since in the end . .. only the US teams will advance to Finals. . .?

Cheer is for everyone . . . ICU is one place for all the countries to unite in one sport where everyone in the WORLD can play. Yes, US teams have worked their butss off all season to come to worlds . . . but NON US TEAMS work as much as the US teams. . . and Worlds is alredi expensive for US teams . . . it is 5x more expensive for NON US Teams . . . .

Not trying to attack anyone. . . just a thought . . . . Retain Top 3 . . . if US teams have the best in the division . . .then they better pray they get into that 3 precious spots. . .if they don't . . then . . . next year . . maybe. . . just as that . . . .

OK, what if the international division had no US teams in it. Everything else is the same. Would you be fine with that? (if so, will explain in a minute).

 

[j3r4h]

OK, what if the international division had no US teams in it. Everything else is the same. Would you be fine with that? (if so, will explain in a minute).

Hahaah. . . then there will be no arguing in this thread. .
I dont think I'd be fine with this division with no US teams in it . . . Simply because, Athletes from US teams are who these international athletes look after and wish to compete with . . . Meeting them could reward all the effort . . . . even if they can only touch 4th place . . .

 

[King]

Hahaah. . . then there will be no arguing in this thread. .
I dont think I'd be fine with a division with no US teams in it . . . Simply because, Athletes from US teams are who these international athletes look after and wish to compete with . . . Meeting them could reward all the effort . . . . even if they can only touch 4th place . . .

Then I am not sure you can have your cake and eat it too (an American expression). At some point the money invested on the US end is going to surpass the possible on the international end and something I proposed or the likes will take over.

The international divisions will exists with no or maybe just one US team and separate to that would be the Open divisions, no country limitations.

Culturally we dont like to be held back and will pressure for change eventually... especially when it doesn't make sense for people to keep participating as it is.

 

[socratesofcheer]

Well, from what I gather it is a lot like cycling. Cycling is about the closest you can come to the 'Worlds / cheerleading gym" relationship.

Cyclists race on teams. These teams 'sorta' represent their country. Team Radio Shack (who had Lance Armstrong) who won all those years in a row was a US team. They don't compete for the US specifically, but are known as a US team. MUCH how Cheer Athletics or Stingrays are American gyms but don't specifically represent the US. The Tour De France doesnt limit teams entering based on what country the team originates from, but based on talent. If the top 50 teams happen to come from Romania... well then all the competitors in that race would be from Romania. Country of origen does not matter.

Why would it matter in cheer?

That's true, except that the tour de France is a team and individual competition at the same time. For example, this year Team Radio Shack won the team race and The individual race winner was from another team entirely. Also, each team MUST qualify to enter the tour de France. So, they in theory could all be from the same country, but, they all get to race if they get the invite.

 

[King]

That's true, except that the tour de France is a team and individual competition at the same time. For example, this year Team Radio Shack won the team race and The individual race winner was from another team entirely. Also, each team MUST qualify to enter the tour de France. So, they in theory could all be from the same country, but, they all get to race if they get the invite.

So basically for the Tour De France they dont have any schizophrenia... they are a team competition.

The international division at Worlds is a country competition subdivded by team competition.

For all my international travelers we HATE paying as much as we do (and I am sure you pay way more) to come and compete and go home after 1 day. You all would HATE paying as much as you do to get 72nd (after 71 US teams) and feel like you have no shot. Again... divide like I said before. One division for open clubs and one division for international. Money is an issue on either sides. One side isn't righter because they pay more or provide more income for the event.