All-Star Usasf Proposed Rule Changes For 22-23

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

See also:

The proposed rule changes effectively add a skill in standing tumbling to most levels.

For example, you’d be able to standing tumble to a layout in L4 when it used to be a tuck.

Or now standing tumble to full in L5 instead of just to layout.

That sound you just heard was the collective concern of everybody who is (this close) to leveling up potentially not doing so if their running tumbling is not progressing as quickly as their standing. Because you could in general get away with being a step behind in standing before. (Example: You could have a running layout and still be at standing tuck and still make J4.)

Add to it kids who due to age grid changes have been on same teams for a little bit and are anxious to move on. (Ex: If you’ve been on J4 for a couple of seasons and the next leap for you is S5.)

 

[Knowcheering]

It looks like they're trying to make Worlds harder to win/more competitive, but at the same time they've made Worlds much easier to win in the Limited divisions. So "Suzy's All Stars" will have a drastically better chance to win Worlds than a normal Level 6 gym that tends to have more than 1 Worlds team. Go figure.

Extra Small & Sr Open were great divisions at Worlds this year, but sure, let's get rid of those divisions while simultaneously creating "Limited" divisions that dilute already existing divisions and reward gyms for either axing their 2nd Worlds team, or never forming one. (I see NT teams, especially, getting axed.)

Why get rid of Sr Open 6 and not Sr Coed Open 6? Do only boys want to cheer past the age cutoff? If the reasoning is that Sr Open is too similar to International Open (which is true), doesn't the same thing apply to the Coed division as well?

 

[Knowcheering]

Senior Level 6 Worlds division sizes- Small 5-14, Medium 15-22, and Large 23-30

I like this idea to create more competition, but it might result in most teams being perpetually stuck at 3 stunt groups. Entering Medium with only 4 stunt groups could be daunting. With Large capped at 30, more Mega-gyms might have enough "extras" to form a Medium team as well. So "Normal size" gyms might be reluctant to do more than 3 stunts so that they stay Small. I would hate to see the majority of Level 6 only doing 3 stunts. The fact that XS teams are currently encouraged to form 4 stunt groups should be seen as a good thing, not something to get rid of.

Capping Large Sr at 30 would be great to make the division more competitive, safer, and easier to judge. There are too many bodies on the floor at 38, but I'm assuming the mega-gyms want the number that high so they can stuff as many athletes as possible onto their top team. These gyms tend to have over 40 kids on the roster at tryout time.

I would maybe do this:
Small 8-17 (4 stunt groups + 1 extra)
Medium 18-22 (5 stunt groups + 2 extras)
Large 23-30 (7 stunt groups + 2 extras)

It's not perfect, but I hate encouraging gyms to only build 3 stunts, especially if we've already created these silly Limited divisions for gyms who can only do 3 stunts. There should be room for a Small team to add a 4th stunt if they are able to. We need to encourage bigger team sizes if possible, not smaller. We don't want gyms to have to turn away kids because they don't fit on a 14 person team.

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As for allowing back handsprings in Level 1, I like this because a back walkover isn't necessarily needed for getting a BHS. If a Level 1 team has a few froggy/weaker beginner back handsprings on it, I see no issue with that. The problem is that Level 1 teams are trying to max out for the sake of Summit. So there's no place for actual beginners anymore and we'll soon see full-team beautiful BHS in Level 1 which is just ridiculous. I'd personally eliminate Level 1-3 from Summit, but we know that won't happen.

 

[Cheermom1979]

I think level 3 needs to go to summit. A lot of Smaller gyms will never field higher then a level 3. And there are a good number of athletes who will max out at level 3. There need to be a space for them…. And it gives levels 1-2 something obtainable to look up to.

 

[Keep_Believing]

Is USA now allowed to compete in level 7 non-tumble? They made an exception for virtual worlds.

 

[CoachTamara]

I am honestly appalled at considering a backhandspring a level 1 skill. One of the things I love about cheer over gymnastics is that kids can compete at any age and any ability... This completely ruins that. Level one is hard as is-I can't imagine doing this too.

 

[Keep_Believing]

For some kids it is easier to get a backhandspring than a backwalkover . Especially for boys. If they only require to have one of the two, it might make it easier for some kids.

 

[catlady]

I am honestly appalled at considering a backhandspring a level 1 skill. One of the things I love about cheer over gymnastics is that kids can compete at any age and any ability... This completely ruins that. Level one is hard as is-I can't imagine doing this too.

Just thinking out loud, so to speak....What would you think if they just did away with the bwo entirely? If the plan is to phase out the bwo and the backbend kickover, I think I could get on board just because of the back injuries they can cause.

Is a bwo necessary to learn a bhs? Can you develop shoulder flexibility another way? Would more older athletes enter and stay in cheer if the bwo and back bend kickover weren't requirements?

 

[JBS]

I am honestly appalled at considering a backhandspring a level 1 skill. One of the things I love about cheer over gymnastics is that kids can compete at any age and any ability... This completely ruins that. Level one is hard as is-I can't imagine doing this too.

Just looking through stuff and I feel like I can really comment on this (being a career gymnastics coach). Take a note from gymnastics... we have now added levels without back handsprings back in as we were really shooting ourselves in the foot by not have a "participation" based beginning... we were way to based on "performance".

Allowing a back handspring too early will completely trash the progressive state of tumbling that cheer has adopted over the years. Gymnastics is a perfect example. Thousands of kids that are not ready are forced to perform bad back handsprings for Level 3 in gymnastics each year. These athletes would be much better served with a little bit more time to develop the skill properly.

One thing to really keep in mind is that crunchy back handsprings do not build the skill strength just by doing the skill as the muscles are not acting properly through the movement.

On the other hand... a back handspring with proper "flow" will absolutely build more strength in the body and skill just by doing the skill. Keeping these athletes on a hill or spotted to produce the "flow" produce more upper level tumblers in the long run.

Also... from a financial standpoint... why would you want to eliminate 90+% of the people on earth from beginning cheer. There is going to be a lot more motivation to stay with it and get that BHS if you part of the game.

Help me understand here... am I seeing this wrong because I really don't get it... or is cheer going down the same road as gymnastics?

 

[JBS]

For some kids it is easier to get a backhandspring than a backwalkover

Ok... so I need to learn a ton more about cheer.

Is a BWO required at Level 1?

This is also a huge problem in gymnastics as well. A BWO is absolutely not a required progression for a BHS. Many times a less flexible and more powerful athlete will get a BHS first. I've even taught high school ages athletes whips first and moved back to BHS as we've improved their flexibility.

 

[catlady]

Ok... so I need to learn a ton more about cheer.

Is a BWO required at Level 1?

This is also a huge problem in gymnastics as well. A BWO is absolutely not a required progression for a BHS. Many times a less flexible and more powerful athlete will get a BHS first. I've even taught high school ages athletes whips first and moved back to BHS as we've improved their flexibility.

Yes, more so for females, however. Boys always seem to be placed on level 2 when they begin, it's rare to see a male on level 1.

 

[JBS]

Crazy triple post moment here...

We've even added the ability to do either a BWO or BHS on balance beam at Level 5 in gymnastics. The constant practicing of bending in half was producing way too many low back injuries in athletes that would be better served by the BHS.

I'm basically arguing both sides now... I wouldn't allow a BHS and I wouldn't require a BWO.

Why not just do a simple flight skill like a roundoff at Level 1?

 

[NJ Coach]

Ok... so I need to learn a ton more about cheer.

Is a BWO required at Level 1?

This is also a huge problem in gymnastics as well. A BWO is absolutely not a required progression for a BHS. Many times a less flexible and more powerful athlete will get a BHS first. I've even taught high school ages athletes whips first and moved back to BHS as we've improved their flexibility.

No tumbling elements are required at any level. However, there are tumbling elements restricted at each level.

Level 1 does not allow bhs. FWO or BWO, Forward or Backward rolls, Handstands etc. Basically it requires the athlete to maintain connection to the performance floor.

Level 2 does allow BHS, however a standing series is not allowed.

 

[NJ Coach]

Crazy triple post moment here...

We've even added the ability to do either a BWO or BHS on balance beam at Level 5 in gymnastics. The constant practicing of bending in half was producing way to many low back injuries in athletes that would be better served by the BHS.

Why not just do a simple flight skill like a roundoff at Level 1?

The problem is (like with everything else in the sport) that unless you ban the skill completely, not doing it will potentially hurt your score. If your team only competes team roundoffs or cartwheels, and you go against a team that has also incorporated a team bwo, those are points you are just giving away.

 

[JBS]

The problem is (like with everything else in the sport) that unless you ban the skill completely, not doing it will potentially hurt your score. If your team only competes team roundoffs or cartwheels, and you go against a team that has also incorporated a team bwo, those are points you are just giving away.

YES... I was waiting for someone to say this. Again... exactly like gymnastics.

So top level teams will crush it because that have enough potential athletes and experienced coaches to make this happen... and your smaller teams with rookie coaches will push athletes into skills that are not ready for just to get the points and compete with the big dogs.

I remember when I moved back home to Wisconsin. I coached advanced tumbling in Oceanside, CA (right by San Marcos)... all of my athletes had double fulls... you had to have a full to even get in the class. They were all CA Bullets. When I took over the advanced tumbling class in Wisconsin... no one could even do a proper BHS.

Some areas may be ready for this rule change... others may not. The amount of athletes wanting to tumble in San Diego was just far greater than Wisconsin. We had a whole complex of beginner and intermediate lead up classes in San Diego... only one beginner / int combo class below advanced in WI.