All-Star Ways To Eliminate Sandbagging

[GreatWhite92]

That I feel is the lynch pin of all of this. If athlete credentialing was possible I think everything else would be completely viable. But I still haven't heard how you determine the level of an athlete? Athletes are more than tumbling. It is baskets, stunts, pyramids, jumps, dancing... everything. And certain teams you take role players who aren't level 5 tumblers, let's say, but are level 5 stunters. (this does apply to lower levels as well).

exactly, You can't exactly say, athlete must be able to execute a full up because a full up requires 3 other girls. or athlete must be able to correctly execute WCs fashionista dance....*I know this wouldn't really be on there* But it raises the question how do you judge that?

 

[King]

exactly, You can't exactly say, athlete must be able to execute a full up because a full up requires 3 other girls. or athlete must be able to correctly execute WCs fashionista dance....*I know this wouldn't really be on there* But it raises the question how do you judge that?

I could probably muscle a base through a fullup with girls as side bases. That no more makes her a level 4/5 flyer just because I can make her do it. I just can't figure out how someone would categorize someone. And then what happens when you put a flyer on a level 5 team pushing her to become level 5, but she ends up falling back 2 or 3 levels. Could she be on a level 3 team like she needs to be then? All variables in cheerleading are fluid. All skills are highly perishable and subject to change by the week.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

That I feel is the lynch pin of all of this. If athlete credentialing was possible I think everything else would be completely viable. But I still haven't heard how you determine the level of an athlete? Athletes are more than tumbling. It is baskets, stunts, pyramids, jumps, dancing... everything. And certain teams you take role players who aren't level 5 tumblers, let's say, but are level 5 stunters. (this does apply to lower levels as well).

I would suggest holding on that question....because I think you can find an answer to that but if you include it in the discussion now, this topic will keep going around in circles. How to define the level is subjective, according to which overall solution you prefer. Get the credentials solution resolved first, independent of any Level criteria. How do you execute the credential process itself?

 

[GreatWhite92]

I could probably muscle a base through a fullup with girls as side bases. That no more makes her a level 4/5 flyer just because I can make her do it. I just can't figure out how someone would categorize someone. And then what happens when you put a flyer on a level 5 team pushing her to become level 5, but she ends up falling back 2 or 3 levels. Could she be on a level 3 team like she needs to be then? All variables in cheerleading are fluid. All skills are highly perishable and subject to change by the week.

I once had a coach base me in a full up and I am the farthest thing from a flyer. I really can't think of a good way to set credentials. Mostly people have been suggesting that the coach decides. The only thing that would help is teams forming in the middle of the season to compete at a lower level for cheersport, nca, uca, ect. At the beginning of the season its fair game if the coach decides how they wants to credential their athletes. Which is why I don't like that.

 

[King]

I would suggest holding on that question....because I think you can find an answer to that but if you include it in the discussion now, this topic will keep going around in circles. How to define the level is subjective, according to which overall solution you prefer. Get the credentials solution resolved first, independent of any Level criteria. How do you execute the credential process itself?

To me the idea of how to credential an athlete is all the issues. If there was an absolute correct way to do it, organizing and managing the atheltes into teams that would not cheat is easy. Once the credentialing is done everything else is as black and white as enforcing age restrictions.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

To me the idea of how to credential an athlete is all the issues. If there was an absolute correct way to do it, organizing and managing the atheltes into teams that would not cheat is easy. Once the credentialing is done everything else is as black and white as enforcing age restrictions.

I agree. That's why you need to isolate it. A few pages ago (or in the other thread) people were saying it can't be done. Prove it can be done first. Shoe tags/cost/process, etc. Pick a level, any level, and use it as your example for that part of the process. Keep skills out of it. Keep how the coach or athlete is going to define their skill out of it. That's part of the sandbagging solution, not execution of the process itself.

 

[King]

I agree. That's why you need to isolate it. A few pages ago (or in the other thread) people were saying it can't be done. Prove it can be done first. Shoe tags/cost/process, etc. Pick a level, any level, and use it as your example for that part of the process. Keep skills out of it. Keep how the coach or athlete is going to define their skill out of it. That's part of the sandbagging solution, not execution of the process itself.

I think we agree, but disagree?

All athlete tracking and registration (whether or not credentialing is a part of it) is extremely possibly and has been discussed many times. The issue of age and athlete trading was the first motivation to come up with one. I think I wrote a whole system on how to track kids and what they do (with RFID tags) about 2 or 3 years ago. It really isn't all that difficult or hard. In fact, that is getting implemented by the USASF as we speak. So this part of the solution isn't the issue.

But being that credentialing is subjective, not well defined, and what defines one athlete at a level is different than what defines another athlete at a level, it cannot be done.

 

[GreatWhite92]

Ok so is there any other suggestions that don't include athlete credentialing as a way to prevent sandbagging and/or athletes cheating on age.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I think we agree, but disagree?

All athlete tracking and registration (whether or not credentialing is a part of it) is extremely possibly and has been discussed many times. The issue of age and athlete trading was the first motivation to come up with one. I think I wrote a whole system on how to track kids and what they do (with RFID tags) about 2 or 3 years ago. It really isn't all that difficult or hard. In fact, that is getting implemented by the USASF as we speak. So this part of the solution isn't the issue.

But being that credentialing is subjective, not well defined, and what defines one athlete at a level is different than what defines another athlete at a level, it cannot be done.

OK, so we can assume the process of athlete credentialing can be done.

Next we have to come to some kind of agreement on what levels and numbers of crossovers are acceptable. (starting to define your project requirements).

One level or two? Up or down or both? This one requires more thought, because it will eventually limit the number of possible solutions you can have.

 

[5-6-7-8]

Ok, let me see if I can get my thought out right...

What if we focus more on team registrations? Each athlete receives a unique ID number (and a shoe tag, ID card, whatever.) As teams are registered, USASF (or some central body) runs registrations through a "check" to see if an athlete is competing with level teams within an acceptable limit. The first competition by default becomes a sort of "benchmark" for the season. So athlete A competes 6 events a the following levels: 2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1. This would be deemed OK by the computer. If an athlete shows up as: 5, 5, 5, 5, 2, the system would spit out an objection. This objection would then look at that particular team's make up. 2 possible scenarios...1) this team registered shows to be make up of mainly level 2 athletes, and the 5 is just one (indicating a fill in), or 2) this team registered as level 2 and is made up of athletes competing levels 3,4,5 and action is taken.

I get in the first few competitions of the year, there wouldn't be much "history" to compare, but after year one there will be some historical data to compare.

If we want to add a "credential" by athlete, we can always have gyms establish the "benchmark" for each athlete at registration (but is merely a "I expect this athlete to compete level x").

 

[TheUltimateFan]

OK, so we can assume the process of athlete credentialing can be done.

Next we have to come to some kind of agreement on what levels and numbers of crossovers are acceptable. (starting to define your project requirements).

One level or two? Up or down or both? This one requires more thought, because it will eventually limit the number of possible solutions you can have.

I forgot to include....

for this part assume there is no cheating. Every athlete declares true to their level. We will get to that discussion later....

 

[King]

I forgot to include....

for this part assume there is no cheating. Every athlete declares true to their level. We will get to that discussion later....

My personal feeling is you cant build a project where its core component isn't possible.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Ok so is there any other suggestions that don't include athlete credentialing as a way to prevent sandbagging and/or athletes cheating on age.

Eliminate levels and age restrictions.

 

[GreatWhite92]

Ok, let me see if I can get my thought out right...

What if we focus more on team registrations? Each athlete receives a unique ID number (and a shoe tag, ID card, whatever.) As teams are registered, USASF (or some central body) runs registrations through a "check" to see if an athlete is competing with level teams within an acceptable limit. The first competition by default becomes a sort of "benchmark" for the season. So athlete A competes 6 events a the following levels: 2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1. This would be deemed OK by the computer. If an athlete shows up as: 5, 5, 5, 5, 2, the system would spit out an objection. This objection would then look at that particular team's make up. 2 possible scenarios...1) this team registered shows to be make up of mainly level 2 athletes, and the 5 is just one (indicating a fill in), or 2) this team registered as level 2 and is made up of athletes competing levels 3,4,5 and action is taken.

I get in the first few competitions of the year, there wouldn't be much "history" to compare, but after year one there will be some historical data to compare.

If we want to add a "credential" by athlete, we can always have gyms establish the "benchmark" for each athlete at registration (but is merely a "I expect this athlete to compete level x").

That's an interesting thought. I would have to hear Kingston take on whether it is possible to be done or not though. but it would take away credentilling

 

[GreatWhite92]

Eliminate levels and age restrictions.

Who knew the answer would be so easy! Everyone competes against everyone!

Kidding...obviously.