All-Star Ways To Eliminate Sandbagging

[csagrl100]

I dont think there is really a way to regulate what level athletes compete in. If you look at smaller gyms like up where I live in Connecticut it hard to get each athlete on a level that they have the skills for. There are gyms that cant create a level 2 or1 senior team for the 4 level 2 or 1 senior age athletes that they have, so they have to have them compete on the level 3 team that they have. Also, what about the 3 or 4 level 5 athletes that a gym has but can create a level 5 or 4 team for them then they need to be on the level 3 team. I'm sure that the regulation of athletes would work for the bigger gyms but the smaller ones would suffer from it. It would be difficult to regulate these athletes too since there are sooo many gyms out there and to make sure each athlete is registered in a certain division and keeping track of that at competition would be difficult.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

My personal feeling is you cant build a project where its core component isn't possible.

That is an assumption. You haven't gotten to the point of analyzing means of preventing cheating. It's only not possible once you have proven it to be impossible. I always assume someone has the answer, you just need to get them to speak out.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Ok, let me see if I can get my thought out right...

What if we focus more on team registrations? Each athlete receives a unique ID number (and a shoe tag, ID card, whatever.) As teams are registered, USASF (or some central body) runs registrations through a "check" to see if an athlete is competing with level teams within an acceptable limit. The first competition by default becomes a sort of "benchmark" for the season. So athlete A competes 6 events a the following levels: 2, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1. This would be deemed OK by the computer. If an athlete shows up as: 5, 5, 5, 5, 2, the system would spit out an objection. This objection would then look at that particular team's make up. 2 possible scenarios...1) this team registered shows to be make up of mainly level 2 athletes, and the 5 is just one (indicating a fill in), or 2) this team registered as level 2 and is made up of athletes competing levels 3,4,5 and action is taken.

I get in the first few competitions of the year, there wouldn't be much "history" to compare, but after year one there will be some historical data to compare.

If we want to add a "credential" by athlete, we can always have gyms establish the "benchmark" for each athlete at registration (but is merely a "I expect this athlete to compete level x").

Trending. Good option and very much viable. So hang on to that idea.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I dont think there is really a way to regulate what level athletes compete in. If you look at smaller gyms like up where I live in Connecticut it hard to get each athlete on a level that they have the skills for. There are gyms that cant create a level 2 or1 senior team for the 4 level 2 or 1 senior age athletes that they have, so they have to have them compete on the level 3 team that they have. Also, what about the 3 or 4 level 5 athletes that a gym has but can create a level 5 or 4 team for them then they need to be on the level 3 team. I'm sure that the regulation of athletes would work for the bigger gyms but the smaller ones would suffer from it. It would be difficult to regulate these athletes too since there are sooo many gyms out there and to make sure each athlete is registered in a certain division and keeping track of that at competition would be difficult.

I don't understand how a small gym would suffer any more from this than it does today. If you compete Level 5 with a handful of Level 5 athletes you are most likely not going to win anything other than an occasional local competition. If you compete a small level 3 team and 2/3 of the team have level 3 skills at Cheersport, for example, you will be much more likely to win based on the talent of your team. But if you don't do something about this loophole, you can have a full level 4-5 team come in and compete at level 3 and you are likely never going to win.

 

[csagrl100]

I don't understand how a small gym would suffer any more from this than it does today. If you compete Level 5 with a handful of Level 5 athletes you are most likely not going to win anything other than an occasional local competition. If you compete a small level 3 team and 2/3 of the team have level 3 skills at Cheersport, for example, you will be much more likely to win based on the talent of your team. But if you don't do something about this loophole, you can have a full level 4-5 team come in and compete at level 3 and you are likely never going to win.

What I was trying to get at was regulating athletes to compete at the level, or one up or down, that they have the skill for. If A level 1 athlete can only compete one level up, and their gym can only offer a level 3 team then how can they compete.

 

[5-6-7-8]

Trending. Good option and very much viable. So hang on to that idea.

I think it addresses some of the issues brought up with individual credentialing which to summarize are
1. Gaining / losing skills
2. How to credential factoring in tumbling, stunting, jumping, dancing, an other skills
3. Last minute substitutions due to injury / illness / whatever
4. Smaller gyms that may not have a perfect assortment of athletes to neatly make up teams.

It does address the issues brought up of:

1. Trying to keep the playing field "level" (preventing sandbagging)
2. Simpler to maintain (computer can do the work to determine the anomalies). I can imagine a large percentage of registrations would be ignored.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

What I was trying to get at was regulating athletes to compete at the level, or one up or down, that they have the skill for. If A level 1 athlete can only compete one level up, and their gym can only offer a level 3 team then how can they compete.

I can see that but what do they do now? Do they compete level 3? Does it hurt your level 3 team to have Level 1 athletes on it? And don't assume I am saying it does to be argumentative. But are your Level 1 cheerleaders on your Level 3 team today and does your level 3 team have strong level 3 skills for most of the team, enough to compensate? If not, why not compete Level 2?

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I think it addresses some of the issues brought up with individual credentialing which to summarize are
1. Gaining / losing skills
2. How to credential factoring in tumbling, stunting, jumping, dancing, an other skills
3. Last minute substitutions due to injury / illness / whatever
4. Smaller gyms that may not have a perfect assortment of athletes to neatly make up teams.

It does address the issues brought up of:

1. Trying to keep the playing field "level" (preventing sandbagging)
2. Simpler to maintain (computer can do the work to determine the anomalies). I can imagine a large percentage of registrations would be ignored.

Yes, much like a golf handicap, right? And it still leaves the decision up to the coaches and athletes.

The next step is to get people to challenge your solution - find the gaps and fill them!

Are there reasons it WON'T work. (Stay out of the weeds, please....the "maybe once in my grandmother's lifetime this team did this" or, "there could be an eclipse followed by a blue moon and this would happen"). Few solutions are perfect, you just need to pick the best you have.

 

[csagrl100]

I can see that but what do they do now? Do they compete level 3? Does it hurt your level 3 team to have Level 1 athletes on it? And don't assume I am saying it does to be argumentative. But are your Level 1 cheerleaders on your Level 3 team today and does your level 3 team have strong level 3 skills for most of the team, enough to compensate? If not, why not compete Level 2?

I dont cheer anymore, but there is a gym near me that has a very strong level 3 team but does have level 1 and 2 athletes.

 

[GreatWhite92]

Yes, much like a golf handicap, right? And it still leaves the decision up to the coaches and athletes.

The next step is to get people to challenge your solution - find the gaps and fill them!

Are there reasons it WON'T work. (Stay out of the weeds, please....the "maybe once in my grandmother's lifetime this team did this" or, "there could be an eclipse followed by a blue moon and this would happen"). Few solutions are perfect, you just need to pick the best you have.

Would the computer catch it if the whole team was, 5,5,5,5,5,4....like they all competed level 5 all season and all the sudden there 4? Or have we decided that a team moving down a level for one competition is ok? Individually moving down a level wouldn't cause much attention but a whole team moving down a level is sandbagging. So would the computer recognize that is my question.

 

[GreatWhite92]

and what about crossovers? Do they get two numbers on their record each competition?

 

[TheUltimateFan]

What I was trying to get at was regulating athletes to compete at the level, or one up or down, that they have the skill for. If A level 1 athlete can only compete one level up, and their gym can only offer a level 3 team then how can they compete.

I think this is the part where the flexibility of choice comes in. The athlete can declare/register at Level 2. Or, if using the other solution, since they will always compete Level 3, the system will rank them Level 3.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Would the computer catch it if the whole team was, 5,5,5,5,5,4....like they all competed level 5 all season and all the sudden there 4? Or have we decided that a team moving down a level for one competition is ok? Individually moving down a level wouldn't cause much attention but a whole team moving down a level is sandbagging. So would the computer recognize that is my question.

If I understood what was being proposed, if that team had competed Level 5 all season (long enough to capture the trend) and then tried to register at a competition as a Level 4, they would be flagged just by the number of people dropping levels. You would have to decide what an acceptable percentage of people would be to drop down a level from a specific team. That would cover injuries, etc. but only one level down. What would that be? 10%? 20%.

I don't think it would be all that hard to code this once you figure out how tightly you want to control it.

 

[GreatWhite92]

If I understood what was being proposed, if that team had competed Level 5 all season (long enough to capture the trend) and then tried to register at a competition as a Level 4, they would be flagged just by the number of people dropping levels. You would have to decide what an acceptable percentage of people would be to drop down a level from a specific team. That would cover injuries, etc. but only one level down. What would that be? 10%? 20%.

I don't think it would be all that hard to code this once you figure out how tightly you want to control it.

Ok just making sure we would be able to catch this since, one person moving down isnt that crazy but a whole team? Now that is not right.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Ok just making sure we would be able to catch this since, one person moving down isnt that crazy but a whole team? Now that is not right.

I honestly never thought about this. At this point I am tracking your ideas, with just some suggestions, so I can maybe create a proposal document. You all have it now and are running with it!;)