All-Star What Skills Arent Hard Enough For The Level They Legally Become Available In?

[luv2cheer92]

CP's coach has told the parents that only tumbling with good technique gets put into the routine. I assumed this was because he wants the team to do well, so therefore I assumed bad technique is not rewarded by judges?

Good technique is scored better than bad technique. But if a skill is thrown, it counts towards difficulty no matter how it looks, so some teams will risk their technique score dropping a little bit to get those points in difficulty.

 

[FierceIsTheName]

Good technique is scored better than bad technique. But if a skill is thrown, it counts towards difficulty no matter how it looks, so some teams will risk their technique score dropping a little bit to get those points in difficulty.

i know this may be totally impossible to implement properly, but I wish there was a way that you could only get difficulty credit on a skill if it is a certain level of technique. Not sure if I'm making sense, but like a round off full would only count towards difficulty if each person was throwing it at lets say a 4.5/5 on technique. I've seen some teams with pretty average technique in tumbling but a handful are throwing scary passes, and I assume it's to meet majority, but I wish you could only meet majority if it's being thrown with decent or "average" technique. Not sure if any of that made sense haha

 

[tumbleyoda]

i know this may be totally impossible to implement properly, but I wish there was a way that you could only get difficulty credit on a skill if it is a certain level of technique. Not sure if I'm making sense, but like a round off full would only count towards difficulty if each person was throwing it at lets say a 4.5/5 on technique. I've seen some teams with pretty average technique in tumbling but a handful are throwing scary passes, and I assume it's to meet majority, but I wish you could only meet majority if it's being thrown with decent or "average" technique. Not sure if any of that made sense haha

While it would be great, here are the issues:

Define average. That right there messes up the whole thing. In the cheer world average that can be anything from somewhat safe to they didn't fall or get injured. As I have been told by too many cheer coaches if they don't fall it counts. That is all many of them are concerned about.

What technique? For example on our scoresheets at one major competition last season our R5 was dinged for "not spinning early enough in the fulls." That judge wanted them spinning off the ground not spinning as we teach from 11am to 1 pm. For what, so they can tear their ACL? Right. :rolleyes: Many of our kids that use the 11 to 1 technique can spin Doubles quite easily. without jacking their knees or ankles up. When our kids read that scoresheet I wish you could of heard their comments about that judge. Now I say this to say that many want the athlete to spin right off the ground because in their mind that is the right technique. Many do not like the mid or late twisting full either because they can not teach it or they have been training to watch the set only and not the whole skill so they can not tell the difference in the techniques. This is why the judges need to be trained in techniques as well. So teams are not punished for doing an Australian whip back technique vs an American whip back technique or a Russian front technique verses a Japanese front technique.

My fix would be make all R5 and above do a compulsory routine with mandatory skills. Both stunting and tumbling. I would have them be the entry level skills. Technique is weighted heavy in compulsory day. This also makes it easier for the judges to see because now they are looking for all the creative transitions, seeing thru the smoke and mirrors of judging the bad skills, etc. No wonder they can not "see" all the bad technique. The gym can put together the routine in whatever manner they want, use whatever music they want (within the rules) but you have to do those skills. Not doing those required skills get you major penalties in score. That then sets the stage for day two optional day where they can do whatever skills the level allows them to do. If you really want to make it interesting only take the top 5 for invitational events or top 10 for larger National event into the optional finals. I bet you would fix the technique issues promptly. Because now a premium is placed on it. You don't go to day two if it is not good. Your parents don't want to go if they are not going to make it to day 2.

 

[XtremeWpg]

This is why I keep coming back to thinking that we need more than 6 levels in order to ensure proper progression.
Example:
Level 1 - All non elite level 1 stunting skills, CW, RO, rolls
Level 2 - All Elite level 1 stunting skills, BWO, FWO
Level 3 - All non elite level 2 stunting skills, RO BHS, single standing BHS, FWO RO BHS
Level 4 - All elite level 2 stunting skills, RO series BHW, standing series BHS
And so on.

Will it create more levels? Yep. Will there be less competition within a level? Yep. Will athletes progress in a safer way? Yep. We're basically doing this anyway with things like 5 Restricted. In my opinion, it would help to stop people from pushing kids to things they're not ready for and throwing janky "at level" skills to get the difficulty points.

 

[tumbleyoda]

This is why I keep coming back to thinking that we need more than 6 levels in order to ensure proper progression.
Example:
Level 1 - All non elite level 1 stunting skills, CW, RO, rolls
Level 2 - All Elite level 1 stunting skills, BWO, FWO
Level 3 - All non elite level 2 stunting skills, RO BHS, single standing BHS, FWO RO BHS
Level 4 - All elite level 2 stunting skills, RO series BHW, standing series BHS
And so on.

Will it create more levels? Yep. Will there be less competition within a level? Yep. Will athletes progress in a safer way? Yep. We're basically doing this anyway with things like 5 Restricted. In my opinion, it would help to stop people from pushing kids to things they're not ready for and throwing janky "at level" skills to get the difficulty points.

Agree. Restricted would of never been needed if they just judged appropriately and allowed teams to build level 5 teams without trying to force them to compete for Worlds bids against these professional Level 5 programs.

But....just looking at the other side of it

Are we(USASF/Varsity) in business in ensuring proper progression or making money? Question easily answered.

The coaches job is proper progressions. The coaches put the athletes on the teams. The coaches sign the teams up to compete. The coaches should always make sure they are leveled appropriately.

The hole is that the governing body does not give enough support to coaches that do this to keep parents and athletes that want to jump ship to other programs where they will not be held accountable to that standard, so many coaches have taken a if you cant beat them, join them approach so that they can try to keep athletes instead f lose them to the gym down the street. Which is sad, in my opinion.

 

[DonePaying4Cheer]

Agree. Restricted would of never been needed if they just judged appropriately and allowed teams to build level 5 teams without trying to force them to compete for Worlds bids against these professional Level 5 programs.

But....just looking at the other side of it

Are we(USASF/Varsity) in business in ensuring proper progression or making money? Question easily answered.

The coaches job is proper progressions. The coaches put the athletes on the teams. The coaches sign the teams up to compete. The coaches should always make sure they are leveled appropriately.

The hole is that the governing body does not give enough support to coaches that do this to keep parents and athletes that want to jump ship to other programs where they will not be held accountable to that standard, so many coaches have taken a if you cant beat them, join them approach so that they can try to keep athletes instead f lose them to the gym down the street. Which is sad, in my opinion.

Some coaches also like cashing Susie's mom's check! Mom says she's leaving if Suze isn't on a level 5 team = Susie pressured to throw skills her teammates are throwing before she's ready or her coach "encourages" her to become level ready.

 

[alpaca]

There has definitely been some progress in this area. But the central issue IMO is coaches are more driven to hit the scoresheet than they are about proper progressions and perfecting them. Because hitting the scoresheets is what gives them the results they want to see ie winning, being a successful program, being better than the program down the street, etc. So everything in essence becomes driven by that. This is why I will always advocate for tumbling programs (and coaches) to be INDEPENDENT of the cheer program in a gym. Meaning they run their own curriculum, promotion, retention etc. and are not influenced or ruled by what cheer coach has saw on youtube, twitter, or flocheer that week and now wants their team to do regardless to if they are physically, mentally or skill ready or not. Not even caring if they are causing mental blocks by throwing stuff at athletes that are not ready for it all for the sake of a wow or a win.

I am very thankful that our gym has an available tumbling program independent of the cheer program. My CP struggles with tumbling. And bc it is not natural for her, I want to make sure she progresses in the safety way possible. So she takes classes/privates with the tumbling coach. Does this mean that she misses out on leveling up next season? Yep, sure does. But I am interested in her long tern heath and safety and not making xyzzy level team next year.

I say that the program is available, but coaches also give privates. And even as an untrained parent, I can see the difference between the technique of the kids taught by the tumbling instructor, and the ones taught by the coaches. I've even heard parents say 'go to coach to get the skill, go to the tumbling instructor to clean it up' Which makes no sense to me. Learn it right the first time. I can tell a lot about a parent and a child's goals/intentions by who they choose for their privates.

 

[wondervvivi]

This is why I keep coming back to thinking that we need more than 6 levels in order to ensure proper progression.
Example:
Level 1 - All non elite level 1 stunting skills, CW, RO, rolls
Level 2 - All Elite level 1 stunting skills, BWO, FWO
Level 3 - All non elite level 2 stunting skills, RO BHS, single standing BHS, FWO RO BHS
Level 4 - All elite level 2 stunting skills, RO series BHW, standing series BHS
And so on.

Will it create more levels? Yep. Will there be less competition within a level? Yep. Will athletes progress in a safer way? Yep. We're basically doing this anyway with things like 5 Restricted. In my opinion, it would help to stop people from pushing kids to things they're not ready for and throwing janky "at level" skills to get the difficulty points.

In Germany Level 0 was created for this season. It's like your Level 1 in your example. Maybe that would help, because the other levels would be the same and there wouldn't be a need to change the whole system. I think the invention of level 0 was very smart because we have very talented level 1 teams with full squad BWO and stuff. I coach a team of 5 to 9 year olds who all started cheering last April or later. And I didn't had the heart to led them compete knowing they would make the last place. So I think with level 0 we have a great oppurtunity to compete our rolls and cartwheels and still make a great place. Because that's what the kids deserve, a beginner level. Where they will rewarded for their hard work. It's simply unfair to led them compete against more talented team because they aren't the same level. And I think with more split up levels we can more focus on progressing the level appropriate skills and make them perfect. (Level 0 and 1 are in Germany just for the Youth)

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[wondervvivi]

I think "waterfalls" like in the video aren't level appropriate. I think they are allowed on both feet in level 4 and on one foot in level 5. I just don't think that it is an equalient dismount as a double for level 5. What do you think?

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[DonnaM]

This kind of seems what Novice and Prep are supposed to be for. Novice for “young, new to the level team that doesn’t have full skills”, Prep (and 4.2) for “can stunt, but not there on tumbling yet” Basically, adding a lot of intermediate levels.

However, I can’t see most parents or kids wanting to go from an elite 2 to a novice 3or a prep 3.2, even if that would be the best fit skill wise.