All-Star Which Is More Difficult?

[Level5Mom]

From what I heard Rays Green scored the same difficulty on stunts at NCA as T&S Junior black ( if not lower!) and they both did 1.25 ups and they did switch ups and Green did high to high lib to stretch. So in this instance the high to high lib to stretch was scored the same as a switch up.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Well wouldn't you think generally that a high to high would be scored better than a press tick tock no matter what body position, if executed nicely, simply because a high to high is a level 5 tick tock and a press is level 4?

High to High tick tocks can be done in Level 4.

 

[timmis]

High to High tick tocks can be done in Level 4.

Really? My mistake.

 

[4me2Kno]

Had some deep thoughts tonight and this looked to be a very well watched thread...

Is there anyone on here who has been on a World's Judging panel that could give their perspective on stunt scoring expectations... On many of the competition companies scoring scales out there, it can be pretty cut and dry what is needed to be done to score in range and what will put a team in the low/middle/high areas of that range...

I have some thoughts in general about TRUE LEVEL 5 STUNTS by definition and how they would relate to a worlds scoresheet...

From the Stunting Worlds Scoresheet

Difficulty (0-25 points)

0-6 points L4 and under stunt skills or limited number of stunts performed in routine.
Multi-based stunts with excessive spotters. Top person with single position in
air. Basic, simple load-in, L3 or under dismount and transitional skills.

6-13 points L5 stunt skills. Multi-based stunts with excessive spotters. Basic load-in, L4
dismount and transitional skills.

13-19 points L5 stunt skills. Multi-based with limited spotters. Advanced load-in, L4/L5
dismount and transitional skills.

19-25 points L5 Multi-based stunt skills with multiple body positions while in the air. Stunts
with minimum required spotters. Elite load-in, L5 dismount and transitional skills.

First: Define Basic/Advanced/Elite Load in at worlds level...??? I would expect advanced/elite to be level 5 unique since this is WORLDS, right?

Full Ups/Switch Ups/Tick Tocks - most variations are level 4 legal, are these still classified as advanced/elite load ins or transitions for worlds which supposed to be level 5, and if so, why are level 4 legal stunts considered in the advanced/elite area for level 5? If all these tick tock/switch up/full up to 1.5 up variations are level 4 legal, they shouldn't really count as L5 transitional skills should they, which is what the 19-25 range notes...

Per the level 4 guidelines 1.5 twisting transitions are legal level 4... So if 1.5 ups to all body positions even the most difficult ones, switch ups, tick tocks (low to high/high to high) are all level 4 legal why would these put you in the top at WORLDS range if level 4 legal? I myself think that many of these skills as set up today should not be level 4 and are ELITE, but as the rules stand this year, there they are just level 4 elements...

* True level 5 stunt transitions/etc by rule and definition under my understanding are: (which are all illegal below level 5):

- 1 and 3/4 to double twisting transitions - varying difficulty if caught in cradle/sponge/prep/extended 2 leg/extended 1 leg
- double downs obviously or 2 and 1/4 twist downs - varying difficulty based on body position executed from
- release moves over extended arm level to 18 inches above extended arm level (which should include anything from a glorified released show and go in the release range below 18 inches and also include released ball up and twist up ball up variations)
- Downward inversions originating from extended level/above prep level (waterfalls/death dives/pancakes...) may be a transition or a dismount...
- Helicopter tosses (why, I don't know but can only be done in level 5)

I've heard much lately about teams throwing and not throwing level 5 stunt sequences and scratch my head a little...

So

Team A does:

Switch up Right Heal Stretch - Level 4 Legal
Power Press Tick Tock to Left High Stretch - Level 4 Legal
High to High Tick tock To Right Stretch, bow - Level 4 Legal
Sponge
1 and 1/4 up - Level 4 Legal
Scorp, Scale, Aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5

Pretty legit sounding overall stunt, but Amazingly the only level 5 unique element is the double down... All other elements level 4 legal. Tally = 4 level 4 elements 1 level 5.

Team B does:

Sponge toss release move (in extended to 18 inches above extended arm Level) back to sponge - Legal only at level 5
Up to Heal Stretch, Bow
Waterfall flip down inversion from extended level to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Flatback
Helicopter toss to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Sponge
Ball Up to Extension - released in level 5 height range
Scorp, Scale, aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5 Legal

Tally = 5 level 5 elements


Now looking alone at stunt A vs B many would say the first (A) is more impressive (I think so too), but the only level 5 skill in Stunt (A) is the double down... In (B) the simple sponge toss to sponge is easy, but level 5, the waterfall roll down is pretty easy, but level 5, the helicopter toss, pretty easy but only legal at level 5, a ball up to extension is pretty easy but if executed and released above extended arm level under 18 inches is only legal at level 5...

So looking at our Level 5 vs Level 4 stunting rules, why should stunt A score better with 1 level 5 unique skill vs 5 in stunt B? Stunt A the only level 5 unique element is the double down - Why would its load ins qualify as advanced or even elite if they are level 4 legal, how would the transitions in stunt A qualify as L5 if they are truely level 4, per our stunt rules why would these level 4 elements put a stunt in the 19-25 range? And would/should stunt B with its level multiple level 5 elements and body positions qualify in the 19-25 range?

Thoughts?

 

[garretttt]

Had some deep thoughts tonight and this looked to be a very well watched thread...

Is there anyone on here who has been on a World's Judging panel that could give their perspective on stunt scoring expectations... On many of the competition companies scoring scales out there, it can be pretty cut and dry what is needed to be done to score in range and what will put a team in the low/middle/high areas of that range...

I have some thoughts in general about TRUE LEVEL 5 STUNTS by definition and how they would relate to a worlds scoresheet...

From the Stunting Worlds Scoresheet

Difficulty (0-25 points)

0-6 points L4 and under stunt skills or limited number of stunts performed in routine.
Multi-based stunts with excessive spotters. Top person with single position in
air. Basic, simple load-in, L3 or under dismount and transitional skills.

6-13 points L5 stunt skills. Multi-based stunts with excessive spotters. Basic load-in, L4
dismount and transitional skills.

13-19 points L5 stunt skills. Multi-based with limited spotters. Advanced load-in, L4/L5
dismount and transitional skills.

19-25 points L5 Multi-based stunt skills with multiple body positions while in the air. Stunts
with minimum required spotters. Elite load-in, L5 dismount and transitional skills.

First: Define Basic/Advanced/Elite Load in at worlds level...??? I would expect advanced/elite to be level 5 unique since this is WORLDS, right?

Full Ups/Switch Ups/Tick Tocks - most variations are level 4 legal, are these still classified as advanced/elite load ins or transitions for worlds which supposed to be level 5, and if so, why are level 4 legal stunts considered in the advanced/elite area for level 5? If all these tick tock/switch up/full up to 1.5 up variations are level 4 legal, they shouldn't really count as L5 transitional skills should they, which is what the 19-25 range notes...

Per the level 4 guidelines 1.5 twisting transitions are legal level 4... So if 1.5 ups to all body positions even the most difficult ones, switch ups, tick tocks (low to high/high to high) are all level 4 legal why would these put you in the top at WORLDS range if level 4 legal? I myself think that many of these skills as set up today should not be level 4 and are ELITE, but as the rules stand this year, there they are just level 4 elements...

* True level 5 stunt transitions/etc by rule and definition under my understanding are: (which are all illegal below level 5):

- 1 and 3/4 to double twisting transitions - varying difficulty if caught in cradle/sponge/prep/extended 2 leg/extended 1 leg
- double downs obviously or 2 and 1/4 twist downs - varying difficulty based on body position executed from
- release moves over extended arm level to 18 inches above extended arm level (which should include anything from a glorified released show and go in the release range below 18 inches and also include released ball up and twist up ball up variations)
- Downward inversions originating from extended level/above prep level (waterfalls/death dives/pancakes...) may be a transition or a dismount...
- Helicopter tosses (why, I don't know but can only be done in level 5)

I've heard much lately about teams throwing and not throwing level 5 stunt sequences and scratch my head a little...

So

Team A does:

Switch up Right Heal Stretch - Level 4 Legal
Power Press Tick Tock to Left High Stretch - Level 4 Legal
High to High Tick tock To Right Stretch, bow - Level 4 Legal
Sponge
1 and 1/4 up - Level 4 Legal
Scorp, Scale, Aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5

Pretty legit sounding overall stunt, but Amazingly the only level 5 unique element is the double down... All other elements level 4 legal. Tally = 4 level 4 elements 1 level 5.

Team B does:

Sponge toss release move (in extended to 18 inches above extended arm Level) back to sponge - Legal only at level 5
Up to Heal Stretch, Bow
Waterfall flip down inversion from extended level to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Flatback
Helicopter toss to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Sponge
Ball Up to Extension - released in level 5 height range
Scorp, Scale, aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5 Legal

Tally = 5 level 5 elements


Now looking alone at stunt A vs B many would say the first (A) is more impressive (I think so too), but the only level 5 skill in Stunt (A) is the double down... In (B) the simple sponge toss to sponge is easy, but level 5, the waterfall roll down is pretty easy, but level 5, the helicopter toss, pretty easy but only legal at level 5, a ball up to extension is pretty easy but if executed and released above extended arm level under 18 inches is only legal at level 5...

So looking at our Level 5 vs Level 4 stunting rules, why should stunt A score better with 1 level 5 unique skill vs 5 in stunt B? Stunt A the only level 5 unique element is the double down - Why would its load ins qualify as advanced or even elite if they are level 4 legal, how would the transitions in stunt A qualify as L5 if they are truely level 4, per our stunt rules why would these level 4 elements put a stunt in the 19-25 range? And would/should stunt B with its level multiple level 5 elements and body positions qualify in the 19-25 range?

Thoughts?

no i cant think my brain hurts now.

 

[ztaprincess]

I really never realized how many teams are really just doing level 4 stunts until I read that post. It makes me scratch my head and think what if a team did Stunt B and lost to a team that did Stunt A then went to the EP and complained giving the details just posted. If all of their stunt was level 5 and the winners wasn't then how is it fair that they lost because say the judges didn't score their stunt as high? (this is assuming both teams hit their routines perfect with no deductions)

 

[4me2Kno]

Just thought it was a little funny how this whole thread sprung up to debate which level 4 tic tock stunt was more difficult :)

 

[Rudags]

I think Level 4 should be capped at a switch up as far as tick tocks. I know they are making Level 4 cap at full ups next year. Although Ive seen level 4's do stretch to stretch tick tocks (Cheer Command Small Senior 4) Going from STRAIGHT UPS (yes, I know you can do Full arounds to prep and 'fake tick tocks) in Level 3 - To stretch to stretch in level 4 seems a bit much.

Others thoughts?

Technically a Ball Up 360 to Stretch to Stretch is legal in Level 4 too.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

See, I was thinking funniest fight. The two of you have kept me thoroughly entertained throughout this entire thread. :)

Oh yes. I'm literally laughing out loud... people are starting to stare!

 

[4me2Kno]

I think Level 4 should be capped at a switch up as far as tick tocks. I know they are making Level 4 cap at full ups next year. Although Ive seen level 4's do stretch to stretch tick tocks (Cheer Command Small Senior 4) Going from STRAIGHT UPS (yes, I know you can do Full arounds to prep and 'fake tick tocks) in Level 3 - To stretch to stretch in level 4 seems a bit much.

Others thoughts?

Technically a Ball Up 360 to Stretch to Stretch is legal in Level 4 too.

I agree that basic type switch ups should be the limit for level 4, tic tocks should be level 5

For your twist up cap being at a single full up, would that be limited to extension 2 foot, or to any/all single leg body positions?

I would say a good progression would allow level 3 to full up to 2 leg prep and extentsion/cupie, level 4 to full up to 1 leg, and level 5 would be anything past a full up...

About the 360 ball up, if the ball up is tossed/released above extended arm level and into the range up to 18 inches above, I would think that would classify as level 5 and beyond the range of what would be OK at level 4. For example the 360 ball ups your team does definitely look like the flyers pass above extended arm level and into that level 5 release height... I remember a debate about Maddie's 360 ball up being possibly too high, that type of ball up would definitely be a level 5 release IMO due to the height of the release... Landing in the stretch and the subsequent high to high tic tock is level 4 though under the current rules, crazy...

It just sounds weird how these stunts are classified right now are the talk of what makes a legitimate level 5 stunt when they are level 4 elements, and seemingly easier skill sets that are level 5 unique, should they score in the upper ranges?

 

[Rudags]

Not saying that its legal just because I saw it, but I know California Coed 4 did a Maddie style Ball up 360.... I assumed it was Legal... Ill search for the video now.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

well what if I told you I stayed up late to watch the UK/Ohio State game after being up for almost 36 hours straight, then only sleeping for three hours before getting up to get my cp ready for competition?

UK 2011 NCAA Basketball National Champions.... crap did I just jinx them and @Andre... sorry :D

C-A-T-S cats cats cats

 

[Rudags]

Cali Coed 4 Ball up 360

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMCtZNAxafI

 

[4me2Kno]

Cali Coed 4 Ball up 360

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMCtZNAxafI

Great Stunt!

My interpretation of it...

Level 4 Release Rules

L4 Stunts-Release Moves
1. Release moves are allowed but must not exceed extended arm level.
Exception: Tick-Tocks

Release move in question: Ball up 360 to sponge stretch to stretch tic tock

Looking at the stunt the flyers feet (In the ball up 360 to sponge stretch) do not look to have passed above the extended arm level of the bases, specifically the back spot... The range from above the extended arm level to 18 inches above is the level 5 area IMO from what I read in the rules... So as executed here and per the current rules, this would be legal IMO at level 4 as it is a release move that does not exceed extended arm level. Had the bases tossed this a bit higher and the ball gotten too high, above extended arm level, I would think it could be illegal at level 4 and a level 5 skill.

So may be kind of one of those gray areas and tough to judge since the legality at level 4 or illegality of it being a level 5 skill depend on the excecution of the ball up. Executed too high it is illegal... If the attempt was for this to catch at the top and not in a sponge it most likely would have gone too high and into level 5 range.

A ball up/twisting ball up at or below extended arm level = level 4
A ball up/twisting ball up above extended arm level but under 18 inches above extended arm level = level 5

So ball ups in general can be executed at both level 4 and 5, its the height that dictates 4 vs 5.

Makes sense to me???

 

[4me2Kno]

Great Stunt!

My interpretation of it...

Level 4 Release Rules

L4 Stunts-Release Moves
1. Release moves are allowed but must not exceed extended arm level.
Exception: Tick-Tocks

Release move in question: Ball up 360 to sponge stretch to stretch tic tock

Looking at the stunt the flyers feet (In the ball up 360 to sponge stretch) do not look to have passed above the extended arm level of the bases, specifically the back spot... The range from above the extended arm level to 18 inches above is the level 5 area IMO from what I read in the rules... So as executed here and per the current rules, this would be legal IMO at level 4 as it is a release move that does not exceed extended arm level. Had the bases tossed this a bit higher and the ball gotten too high, above extended arm level, I would think it could be illegal at level 4 and a level 5 skill.

So may be kind of one of those gray areas and tough to judge since the legality at level 4 or illegality of it being a level 5 skill depend on the excecution of the ball up. Executed too high it is illegal... If the attempt was for this to catch at the top and not in a sponge it most likely would have gone too high and into level 5 range.

A ball up/twisting ball up at or below extended arm level = level 4
A ball up/twisting ball up above extended arm level but under 18 inches above extended arm level = level 5

So ball ups in general can be executed at both level 4 and 5, its the height that dictates 4 vs 5.

Makes sense to me???

That was my best Les Stella Impersonation with my interpretation