All-Star Your Dream "champions League"

[L5cheermom]

Just for the sake of philosophizing (and because it's Summer and not much is going on) I thought it might be interesting to theorize about how a true National Championship could be structured. I think Worlds and the Summit are reasonable options given the logistical issues that All-Star creates, but suspect that without those logistical concerns other options might be available. So, for the sake of discussion lets remove the challenges that travel and cost create. If you had a magic wand, how would you structure All-Star Cheerleading to develop a system that results in an undisputed National Champion?

What if there was a Conference system like NCAA? The conferences could be grouped by gym size, Level distribution, or competitiveness of teams. Gyms could associate themselves with a certain Conference and compete only against like minded gyms. At the end of the season each Conference would determine a top performing team in each level that would compete at a Worlds type event. The fun thing about a Conference system is that it could culminate in an All-Star competition where each conference at the end of the season could build teams with their best of the best to compete at a final competition.

Another thought I had was a point system, like NASCAR. I think I've seen this idea mentioned on another thread before. Instead of bids EPs would award points to event winners which accumulate throughout the season. The top point winners would compete at the end of the season.

What are other ideas?

 

[tumbleyoda]

I like the conference system like NCAA. I feel like when you look at All Star programs across the country your pretty much see 3 divisions: (A) Super Competitive - Worlds/Summit/All Levels/US Finals or the year is a bust. (B) Competitive but not at the expense of program ideals, values, ethics, etc - Happy to win, but not going to throw a hissy fit if you lose - the experience is worth it. (C) Performance/Intro - welcome to the World of All Star cheer from Rec, other sports, pretty much a beginner All Star program. IMO there is no way you can say it is competition when program type A competes against program type C.

As I have long said I would favor two divisions: One for program type A and one for programs type B and C. Only program A is eligible for Worlds, after all that is what they are after.

Programs B and C are not eligible for Worlds. I would allow those programs to compete their Level 5 teams (if they had them) at Summit/US Finals either as exhibition, or to get a pre determined point total to be eligible to move to the Worlds division the following year. This alone would alleviate the overcrowding at Worlds.

Programs B and C could voluntarily make the jump to the higher division no later than Jan of the competitive year. However they would have to compete at that division for every team in the gym, not just their worlds level teams. Once at the higher level they could not drop back to the lower level of competition. It also affects the entire gym, not just one team. This would cause owners to think long and hard about moving up just to try to go to Worlds.

The downside is program A types would pretty much only compete against like programs which may mean they will only have competition at bigger events. The upside is that every time they compete it will be against somebody who is just as competitive as they are and who are capable of possibly beating them. Just some thoughts. More to come.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Continuing from above...

I think in years past the hindrance to what I suggested is that implementing something like this would of cut a big chunk out of Worlds. As much as we don't like to admit it, USASF/Varsity makes money on Worlds. There is a lot of money to be made by EP's, vendors as well in the chase to get to Worlds. If you tell gyms that they pretty much have no other option for Level 5 athletes as an end of year event but Worlds you drive every program to the chase for that event, therefore making much $$$ in the process.

Remember when Jamfest bought Final Destination years ago and made it US Finals, Level 5's were going to be allowed to compete there. My level 5 team from my old gym got a paid bid in Small Coed at their first qualifying event. Then it was blocked after the event and we were by Jamfest that no Level 5's could attend that event. IMO basically if you cut to the chase, it was shut down to protect the chase for level 5's to get to USASF/Varsity Worlds.

Now that Varsity has the Summit, they can get both. They can get the programs that truly believe they have a shot, and those who realistically know they do not, but still want to push to become better rather than lose their level 5's to other local gyms.

 

[Ashley]

My only issue with the idea of divisions is that in college and high school there are very strict rules about it - it's based on size. We can't rank teams by "worlds or bust" - that's asking program owners to decide their own division, which really isn't a good idea.

We could instead rank on size, like school divisions do. This would put all of the mega-gyms against each other, but might force some of the smaller, but still very competitive programs into a lower division.

 

[tumbleyoda]

My only issue with the idea of divisions is that in college and high school there are very strict rules about it - it's based on size. We can't rank teams by "worlds or bust" - that's asking program owners to decide their own division, which really isn't a good idea.

We could instead rank on size, like school divisions do. This would put all of the mega-gyms against each other, but might force some of the smaller, but still very competitive programs into a lower division.

I don't think we rank them. I think the owners should know what their plans are and what path they want their gym to take. Honestly if there was another viable option I have coached at least 4 teams that would not of went to Worlds if there was another great option for them. But there was not so they went to Worlds. Did they win? No. Were they an embarrassment, No. Did they hit their routines? Yes. Did they grow by it? Yes. But if I/we had another option believe me we would not of gone.

Which is why I like the option for that smaller competitive program if they want to "play with the big boys" than to let them do so. I think if you make it based on size you will even find among the mega gym models those with really good Level 5 teams and then the rest of the teams within that program are not as strong.

 

[L5cheermom]

Would we have a Worlds type event for every conference or just Conference A?


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[12stepCheermom]

I like the conference system like NCAA. I feel like when you look at All Star programs across the country your pretty much see 3 divisions: (A) Super Competitive - Worlds/Summit/All Levels/US Finals or the year is a bust. (B) Competitive but not at the expense of program ideals, values, ethics, etc - Happy to win, but not going to throw a hissy fit if you lose - the experience is worth it. (C) Performance/Intro - welcome to the World of All Star cheer from Rec, other sports, pretty much a beginner All Star program. IMO there is no way you can say it is competition when program type A competes against program type C.

As I have long said I would favor two divisions: One for program type A and one for programs type B and C. Only program A is eligible for Worlds, after all that is what they are after.

Programs B and C are not eligible for Worlds. I would allow those programs to compete their Level 5 teams (if they had them) at Summit/US Finals either as exhibition, or to get a pre determined point total to be eligible to move to the Worlds division the following year. This alone would alleviate the overcrowding at Worlds.

Programs B and C could voluntarily make the jump to the higher division no later than Jan of the competitive year. However they would have to compete at that division for every team in the gym, not just their worlds level teams. Once at the higher level they could not drop back to the lower level of competition. It also affects the entire gym, not just one team. This would cause owners to think long and hard about moving up just to try to go to Worlds.

The downside is program A types would pretty much only compete against like programs which may mean they will only have competition at bigger events. The upside is that every time they compete it will be against somebody who is just as competitive as they are and who are capable of possibly beating them. Just some thoughts. More to come.

I love basically everything about this. If only...


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[12stepCheermom]

Would we have a Worlds type event for every conference or just Conference A?


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I think it's already there.

Conference a=worlds
Conference b=summit
Conference c=us finals

It's getting the various EPs on board with that.


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[L5cheermom]

I do like the idea of a point system though. It would favor those teams that perform consistently throughout the season over those who just peak at the end.


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[alexacheer2010]

I think it's already there.

Conference a=worlds
Conference b=summit
Conference c=us finals

It's getting the various EPs on board with that.


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I don't really agree with that. Lower level teams can't compete at worlds (4 and under) so I don't feel like the competitions can really reflect the caliber of the gyms in that way. There are some gyms that have amazing senior level 3 teams but maybe their youth team isn't as experienced so they aren't as good. That doesn't make the gym as a whole "bad" because of the youth team. I feel like a lot of people only look at the worlds teams to pick the "conference a" gyms. Just because a gym doesn't have a senior level 5 team doesn't make it a bad gym. I feel like there are a lot of gyms out there that are building their programs up, and are really good gyms but if we just consider the worlds teams gyms the best ones, and get the EPs to "ban" the "conference b and c" gyms, everyone will A) move to a mega gym or B) the b and c gyms will be forever deemed the lesser gyms and stop working to having a worlds team because they know they wouldn't be considered. maybe the solution to the too many teams at worlds problem is to just cut the number of bids available?


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[12stepCheermom]

I don't really agree with that. Lower level teams can't compete at worlds (4 and under) so I don't feel like the competitions can really reflect the caliber of the gyms in that way. There are some gyms that have amazing senior level 3 teams but maybe their youth team isn't as experienced so they aren't as good. That doesn't make the gym as a whole "bad" because of the youth team. I feel like a lot of people only look at the worlds teams to pick the "conference a" gyms. Just because a gym doesn't have a senior level 5 team doesn't make it a bad gym. I feel like there are a lot of gyms out there that are building their programs up, and are really good gyms but if we just consider the worlds teams gyms the best ones, and get the EPs to "ban" the "conference b and c" gyms, everyone will A) move to a mega gym or B) the b and c gyms will be forever deemed the lesser gyms and stop working to having a worlds team because they know they wouldn't be considered. maybe the solution to the too many teams at worlds problem is to just cut the number of bids available?


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I'm not making any judgement of good and bad gyms, just existing competition structures where they could fit those conferences in. If conference A is the only one allowed to worlds that would be their final goal.


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[yojaehs]

I don't think it's EP's that will have a problem with it as much as gyms. Even B/C gyms don't want to tell their customers "we just don't want to shoot for Worlds". Heck there is a dang near black ball issues when athletes choose to go to current gyms C to B or B to A. I don't dislike the system but I'm curious if something like this comes along will gyms be ok to "pass on" their athletes as the athletes desire different things? I'm not saying B/C gyms don't have talent and aren't great coaches but "something" separates them.

I'm going to do this only for the sake of argument but lets look at gymnastics. There are very few "elite" gyms in the country. When a gym sees their athlete progressing to that level MOST do what they can to get their athletes to these "elite" gyms. I just don't see cheer ever being that way IMO.


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[tumbleyoda]

I don't really agree with that. Lower level teams can't compete at worlds (4 and under) so I don't feel like the competitions can really reflect the caliber of the gyms in that way. There are some gyms that have amazing senior level 3 teams but maybe their youth team isn't as experienced so they aren't as good. That doesn't make the gym as a whole "bad" because of the youth team. I feel like a lot of people only look at the worlds teams to pick the "conference a" gyms. Just because a gym doesn't have a senior level 5 team doesn't make it a bad gym. I feel like there are a lot of gyms out there that are building their programs up, and are really good gyms but if we just consider the worlds teams gyms the best ones, and get the EPs to "ban" the "conference b and c" gyms, everyone will A) move to a mega gym or B) the b and c gyms will be forever deemed the lesser gyms and stop working to having a worlds team because they know they wouldn't be considered. maybe the solution to the too many teams at worlds problem is to just cut the number of bids available?


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What people seem to to want to admit or recognize is that Worlds is a business first and a sporting event second. What you are asking them to do is not make money so you don't have to sit thru so many teams or only see the teams you feel have a honest chance of winning. Or to ask teams to turn down bids because they don't have a chance, until you get to a level where you eventually only have the super competitive programs competing against each other anyway? Isn't that one of the draws of the Majors event?

I don't consider only gyms with World's teams to be super competitive. Not having a Worlds team does not make a gym bad - although this is a marketing strategy often used by local gyms against each other - sadly. This is why gyms can chose to align themselves upward wherever they feel they best serve their customers and their goals. You go where you feel you best fit, initially and work your way up.

What this does is allow gyms to build up their programs as you say. Which is what I want to see and not have gyms feel like they have no choice but to merge/close.

It would not be up to the Ep's to ban any gym. If I was an EP in this type of system I would market to all and make it work at the same event. It would ensure a lesser percentage of teams pulling out because they don't want their beginning level team for example to compete against that level 3 team that is really a level 5 team crossing over to level 3.