All-Star 2012 Worlds

[yojaehs]

I have to go with NCA. So why argue with the statement "I don't think anyone will argue that CheerSport is the best level 5 competition" at this late date? Missed communication? I will say this, in talking with Courtney and some people at Varsity, there seems to be a lot of informed people that think Worlds should evolve to to include the regular competition season in the World's Championship. Let's be real, a second day at 2:30 should NOT define the best of the best. Go with a standardized score sheet and include multiple Nationals of choice, say NCA, CheerSport, UCA, Jambrands and whatever everyone agrees should be included, and make it 50% of the score for Champion. Agree?

1st I think that NCA is hands down the best level 5 comp (yes already been said but wanted to 2nd/3rd it). Absolutely 100% DISAGREE that ANYTHING you have done previously should matter ON the score sheet. However I DO think that the bid you received SHOULD determine your performance order. I've read several others posts on this so I won't rehash, but basically, I just think that is dumb.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

You won't find a bigger proponent of a universal scoresheet than me.

Instead of changing the nationals scoresheets to look more like the Worlds ones, I would change the Worlds ones to look more like the nationals ones though. I am not a fan of gerrymandering the Worlds scoring system to try to figure out ways to handicap American teams. If anything, I would rather we were just upfront about it and say that all American teams start with a -25 score. Worlds, even the "international" divisions, is NOT about country vs. country - that is the ICU. It is about gym vs. gym regardless of what their address is.

I think the staffs, you coaches, should agree on and decide the format of the score sheets. That should be your expertise, so that is fine. On the International, I'll take a pass as I have no experience there. On the judging, well, that is the key discussion if you are going to promote a judged sport.

That said, it seems to me that regionals and nationals are right now, for World's divisions, not very important to the process and really added expense and risk of injury. I think you lose a real chance at broadening the fan base and increasing the popularity of the sport if you make the "regular season" less and less important with the Worlds Championship dominating the Nationals. That said, if you do not mandate that they are factored into the Worlds Title someway, you are left with exposure to your competitiors and judging decisions along with the experience of competing as being their only real contribution to the crowning of a Worlds Champion, and the best I can tell, you never, ever have the vast majority of top Level 5 teams at a National except maybe NCA. Things to think about I suppose.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

1st I think that NCA is hands down the best level 5 comp (yes already been said but wanted to 2nd/3rd it). Absolutely 100% DISAGREE that ANYTHING you have done previously should matter ON the score sheet. However I DO think that the bid you received SHOULD determine your performance order. I've read several others posts on this so I won't rehash, but basically, I just think that is dumb.

That is fine. Have you ever sat in an organizational meeting discussing planning and put ideas out to get interaction and input from others? If so, some are accepted, some are shot down, but the process often leads to answers that were never considered. Dumb, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but making Nationals pertinent seems to be a reasonable discussion for those involved. In all due respect, performance order is not a very big carrot. However, guaranteed finals participation is something to discuss.

 

[yojaehs]

That is fine. Have you ever sat in an organizational meeting discussing planning and put ideas out to get interaction and input from others? If so, some are accepted, some are shot down, but the process often leads to answers that were never considered. Dumb, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but making Nationals pertinent seems to be a reasonable discussion for those involved. In all due respect, performance order is not a very big carrot. However, guaranteed finals participation is something to discuss.

I'm sorry for the word "dumb" a lil harsh. But yes, I have been to many many many meetings and will be in Doral and New Orleans and am in constant contact with many gym Owners across the country as well as as many EP's as possible. I have never heard of this idea so maybe that is why it seems odd to me, but even ideas I consider crazy have often opened the doors to other ideas so in that I can at least say give it a shot. I guess I just don't see how what you have done previously to THAT MOMENT should count for THAT MOMENT? It bothers me that UCA College does a "crowd score" other wise known as a "cloud score", but that's a different story. I don't see this working for the reason that EP's have different score sheets (yes another argument) but I don't see how this could work with so many different company's your basically saying that a team could go to "po dunk nationals" and that score should carry the same amount of weight? I just don't see how to make it consistent, also I just completely disagree with a previous performance having any part of a separate performance, even rosters change too frequently for that to carry over.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I'm sorry for the word "dumb" a lil harsh. But yes, I have been to many many many meetings and will be in Doral and New Orleans and am in constant contact with many gym Owners across the country as well as as many EP's as possible. I have never heard of this idea so maybe that is why it seems odd to me, but even ideas I consider crazy have often opened the doors to other ideas so in that I can at least say give it a shot. I guess I just don't see how what you have done previously to THAT MOMENT should count for THAT MOMENT? It bothers me that UCA College does a "crowd score" other wise known as a "cloud score", but that's a different story. I don't see this working for the reason that EP's have different score sheets (yes another argument) but I don't see how this could work with so many different company's your basically saying that a team could go to "po dunk nationals" and that score should carry the same amount of weight? I just don't see how to make it consistent, also I just completely disagree with a previous performance having any part of a separate performance, even rosters change too frequently for that to carry over.

I'm not saying anything other than it seems a shame that we saw our competition together one time last year at JamFest Nationals. And then it was less than 1/2 of the teams in the division at Worlds. So right now there is no structure to the Regionals and Nationals, and that clearly is a product of the evolution of the sport and promotors and agendas. I do believe the vast number of pertinent competition companies are basically now owned by Varsity and JamFest and beg my igonorance about the West Coast but they sure are making waves in Cheer so that is clearly an area of growth. In that situation, instead of 20 competition companies, you are now dealing with what 2-4 if you throw in CheerSport that seems to be very close to Varsity now. Don't get bogged down by my original suggestion, but if only briefly think of what a boon to the Industry a "regular season" of competition would be to the sport. Right now, I'm afraid there is no reason or motivation to really go to multiple Nationals other than to support the gym business plan and I suppose the act of competition for the Worlds Divison team. And although I think the lower level teams and competitions are extremely important, in fact the very kids and parents that pay the bills for the Industry, I do not see them on ESPN. Level 5 is your prime product for general consumption. I personally was very disappointed in Worlds this year for reasons that are not important, but I think the sport needs new direction to become a more serious consideration. Structure, universal scoring, consistant judging, cultivated competitions and rivals fighting it out during the year would do a lot to dispel the "pagent nature" of a sport that seems caught in the past and not quite ready to move into prime time. My Reds play the teams in there divisin 18 times each for the right to get to the post season, the NFL, each team 2 times in their division. As do the major NCAA sports. All Star Cheer has not embraced that model, maybe it should not, but I think it's worth thinking about.

 

[yojaehs]

I'm not saying anything other than it seems a shame that we saw our competition together one time last year at JamFest Nationals. And then it was less than 1/2 of the teams in the division at Worlds. So right now there is no structure to the Regionals and Nationals, and that clearly is a product of the evolution of the sport and promotors and agendas. I do believe the vast number of pertinent competition companies are basically now owned by Varsity and JamFest and beg my igonorance about the West Coast but they sure are making waves in Cheer so that is clearly an area of growth. In that situation, instead of 20 competition companies, you are now dealing with what 2-4 if you throw in CheerSport that seems to be very close to Varsity now. Don't get bogged down by my original suggestion, but if only briefly think of what a boon to the Industry a "regular season" of competition would be to the sport. Right now, I'm afraid there is no reason or motivation to really go to multiple Nationals other than to support the gym business plan and I suppose the act of competition for the Worlds Divison team. And although I think the lower level teams and competitions are extremely important, in fact the very kids and parents that pay the bills for the Industry, I do not see them on ESPN. Level 5 is your prime product for general consumption. I personally was very disappointed in Worlds this year for reasons that are not important, but I think the sport needs new direction to become a more serious consideration. Structure, universal scoring, consistant judging, cultivated competitions and rivals fighting it out during the year would do a lot to dispel the "pagent nature" of a sport that seems caught in the past and not quite ready to move into prime time. My Reds play the teams in there divisin 18 times each for the right to get to the post season, the NFL, each team 2 times in their division. As do the major NCAA sports. All Star Cheer has not embraced that model, maybe it should not, but I think it's worth thinking about.

I hear ya, I really do. My gym has adjusted our competition schedule this year to include less total number of competitions and focus on more quality vs quantity. We actually LOWERED our fees for our lvl 5's. We as a gym (including parents, kids and coaches) got tired of performing "exhibitions" and want to compete more. HOWEVER let me add, that I do feel it IS very important for ALL gyms to compete at a local comp or two for TWO very IMPORTANT reasons. 1. Experience, as I think BlueCat mentioned earlier, seasoned teams tend to have the advantage, getting on a floor at a comp (regardless the size or who's in the division) will always be better than "performing" in the gym. 2. My gym DOES NOT recruit but our biggest and believe our BEST form of "recruiting" is bringing our gym to local comps and showcasing talent of our program, and I feel this is important for all gyms.
However I will agree with you 100% that the lack of competitions that allow you to TRULY compete is extremely annoying. I am very much like you in the fact that I am only familiar with "East Coast" comps, CheerSport, NCA, Indy, UCA (I'm sure West Coast has big and great comps I just don't know what they are).
I like the good ole days where you had your regional and state comps that were used as National Qualifiers. I would like to see things kinda go back to that (I think UCA is the only event that still does this, ADD that I'm not the BIGGEST UCA fan but they have been getting better lately).

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I hear ya, I really do. My gym has adjusted our competition schedule this year to include less total number of competitions and focus on more quality vs quantity. We actually LOWERED our fees for our lvl 5's. We as a gym (including parents, kids and coaches) got tired of performing "exhibitions" and want to compete more. HOWEVER let me add, that I do feel it IS very important for ALL gyms to compete at a local comp or two for TWO very IMPORTANT reasons. 1. Experience, as I think BlueCat mentioned earlier, seasoned teams tend to have the advantage, getting on a floor at a comp (regardless the size or who's in the division) will always be better than "performing" in the gym. 2. My gym DOES NOT recruit but our biggest and believe our BEST form of "recruiting" is bringing our gym to local comps and showcasing talent of our program, and I feel this is important for all gyms.
However I will agree with you 100% that the lack of competitions that allow you to TRULY compete is extremely annoying. I am very much like you in the fact that I am only familiar with "East Coast" comps, CheerSport, NCA, Indy, UCA (I'm sure West Coast has big and great comps I just don't know what they are).
I like the good ole days where you had your regional and state comps that were used as National Qualifiers. I would like to see things kinda go back to that (I think UCA is the only event that still does this, ADD that I'm not the BIGGEST UCA fan but they have been getting better lately).

Well can't you fix it for me?

 

[King]

This past UCA was actually really good. Varsity scoring, (though no reverse order for finals.... hope they fix that), division break down. Between Athletic Chattanooga (the BEST non bid competition out there), NCA Dallas, and UCA it was nice to see our scores come out consistent across many judges.

(consistent scoring does not mean we go the same score if we hit or not, but all the scores made sense and you would believe we could have gotten each score at any of the competitions).

 

[yojaehs]

This past UCA was actually really good. Varsity scoring, (though no reverse order for finals.... hope they fix that), division break down. Between Athletic Chattanooga (the BEST non bid competition out there), NCA Dallas, and UCA it was nice to see our scores come out consistent across many judges.

(consistent scoring does not mean we go the same score if we hit or not, but all the scores made sense and you would believe we could have gotten each score at any of the competitions).

Agreed (didn't go to Chattanooga though)

 

[King]

Agreed (didn't go to Chattanooga though)

200 teams last year. I bet it will hit somewhere around 250 this year. Lots of the great state of Georgia programs go. It would be a really good program for Brandon. Competition at all levels.

 

[yojaehs]

Well can't you fix it for me?

I'm trying!!!