All-Star 2012 Worlds

[NJ Coach]

Are you suggesting, then, that:

1. There are no politics or fifedoms in cheer today? And that classifying cheer as a sport would make things worse?

2. Regulation is a bad thing?

Classification as a sport (I'm assuming we're talking about college) could potentially be a bad thing. Yes, there will be scholarships, but NCAA eligibility comes into play, as well as strict seasons ect. I don't know that the pros outweigh the cons.

 

[King]

The fear is that we are not aware of how good we have it now (or have no true way of knowing how good we have it now) and that the grass is not really greener on the other side. We probably will not know or have no way of knowing what cheer will be like if we were classified as a sport.

At the same time, change is seldom comfortable, good or bad. So unless we do it, how would we truly know?

 

[SharkDad]

I am in favor of any change that improves standardization and safety. Both are lacking at all levels of cheer.

 

[newcheerdad]

The fear is that we are not aware of how good we have it now (or have no true way of knowing how good we have it now) and that the grass is not really greener on the other side. We probably will not know or have no way of knowing what cheer will be like if we were classified as a sport.

At the same time, change is seldom comfortable, good or bad. So unless we do it, how would we truly know?

I honestly believe that the net effect of cheerleading being considered a sport would be positive. Yes, there would be significant changes in competitive cheer at the high school and college level. (Basically, cheerleading would be treated just like any other sport.)

But once cheer is recognized as a sport at the collegiate level, the opportunities for exposure and scholarships would almost certainly increase interest in youth cheer.

And standardization of rules and scoring across all levels of cheer would increase interest in the sport and dramatically improve the quality of officiating and judging.

Cheer can only grow so far if it's some kind of weird, nebulous quasi-sport.

 

[scottish_cheerleader]

Let's be real, a second day at 2:30 should NOT define the best of the best. Go with a standardized score sheet and include multiple Nationals of choice, say NCA, CheerSport, UCA, Jambrands and whatever everyone agrees should be included, and make it 50% of the score for Champion. Agree?

have you considered international teams at all here? I sure as hell couldn't afford to pay to come and compete at "multiple nationals" then worlds! I can understand where you are going with this for american teams but I just don't think you are getting the bigger picture of WORLDS

 

[redsmom]

I have to go with NCA. So why argue with the statement "I don't think anyone will argue that CheerSport is the best level 5 competition" at this late date? Missed communication? I will say this, in talking with Courtney and some people at Varsity, there seems to be a lot of informed people that think Worlds should evolve to to include the regular competition season in the World's Championship. Let's be real, a second day at 2:30 should NOT define the best of the best. Go with a standardized score sheet and include multiple Nationals of choice, say NCA, CheerSport, UCA, Jambrands and whatever everyone agrees should be included, and make it 50% of the score for Champion. Agree?

Actually the regular season is involved, that is where you earn your bid to compete at the world championship. Similar to other sports, you do well during the regular season, you get to be in the playoffs. (Not saying I like the current bid system, imho it has some problems.) Look at UCONN they finished 9th in the Big East alone during the regular season, but not only won the Big East Tournament, but also the NCAA tournament.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Nice use of buzzwords, cliches, and catchphrases. I'm not sure what you actually are trying to say, though.

What sport uses out the regular season results to affect the final score of the championship? That sounds like a terrible idea. (That also sounds like the Infinity Cup.) They don't add 6 points to the NFC team in the Superbowl because they beat the AFC team in week 7 of the regular season. You don't get to start with a runner on 1st for 5 innings in each World Series game if you won over 90 games in the season.

Are you trying to give the event producers more power? Now your scores at their nationals in February play a role in the scores at Worlds? How is that helping gym owners overthrow their "evil EP overlords"?

I'll try to do better communicating. Taking the NFL as an example, are you really suggesting that the system of regular season record, seeding and playoff qualification in anyway compares to the bid system in All Star Cheer? Really? Football and baseball play with the same rules, have officially sanctioned referees and the records in the regular season absolutely and positively impact on your ability to reach the Super Bowl or the World Series. Goodness, apples and oranges. That does not compare to the system of paid and at large bids. Maybe National should not add to the score, but they should have more of an impact or they are ultimately going to become an expense and risk for injury for no other benefit.

If one accepts the premise that in Level 5 All Star that Worlds is and should be the equivalent of the Super Bowl, and I do, all one really needs to do is put together a team of athletes, practice them for a couple of months in the gym, show up at a competition and get a paid or at large bid, just one competition, and go to Worlds and potentially win. Now, as a parent, I would like that approach, 3 months of tuition, one competition fee, and hopefully stack a team with the best athletes you can find in your gym and from the surrounding country and waltz into Orlando and blow people away. Should not be that way, but right now, no reason not to do that very thing.

As far as EP's go, I did not say they were evil or bad, your words, but the gym owners and coaches along with the athletes give WAY to much influence to that part of the Cheer Business and should start working with eachother to promote the system they feel is best for the business, their gyms and ultimately the kids. EPs are business people, I like business people, but their interest is always and ultimately guided by profits. And although capitalism frequently leads to the best product available at the best price, I'm afraid there is a loss of balance right now.

I have no problems with what has been done in the past, and I'm not trying to in any way diminish any past medalists including this year, they did it by the rules and won fair and square. I just think how we do it now has fatal flaws.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

have you considered international teams at all here? I sure as hell couldn't afford to pay to come and compete at "multiple nationals" then worlds! I can understand where you are going with this for american teams but I just don't think you are getting the bigger picture of WORLDS

They will have to follow the US lead I suppose with struture in their country and region. I'm not saying that counting Nationals in the final score is the only way or the best way, just throwing out a thought. Since there is no real structure now, you have a very valid point in my discussion.

 

[BlueCat]

I'll try to do better communicating. Taking the NFL as an example, are you really suggesting that the system of regular season record, seeding and playoff qualification in anyway compares to the bid system in All Star Cheer? Really? Football and baseball play with the same rules, have officially sanctioned referees and the records in the regular season absolutely and positively impact on your ability to reach the Super Bowl or the World Series. Goodness, apples and oranges. That does not compare to the system of paid and at large bids. Maybe National should not add to the score, but they should have more of an impact or they are ultimately going to become an expense and risk for injury for no other benefit.

If one accepts the premise that in Level 5 All Star that Worlds is and should be the equivalent of the Super Bowl, and I do, all one really needs to do is put together a team of athletes, practice them for a couple of months in the gym, show up at a competition and get a paid or at large bid, just one competition, and go to Worlds and potentially win. Now, as a parent, I would like that approach, 3 months of tuition, one competition fee, and hopefully stack a team with the best athletes you can find in your gym and from the surrounding country and waltz into Orlando and blow people away. Should not be that way, but right now, no reason not to do that very thing.

As far as EP's go, I did not say they were evil or bad, your words, but the gym owners and coaches along with the athletes give WAY to much influence to that part of the Cheer Business and should start working with eachother to promote the system they feel is best for the business, their gyms and ultimately the kids. EPs are business people, I like business people, but their interest is always and ultimately guided by profits. And although capitalism frequently leads to the best product available at the best price, I'm afraid there is a loss of balance right now.

I have no problems with what has been done in the past, and I'm not trying to in any way diminish any past medalists including this year, they did it by the rules and won fair and square. I just think how we do it now has fatal flaws.

It is not apples and oranges. Nearly every sport, whether it is HS football, MLB, World Cup Soccer, NBA, March Madness, Olympics, . . . has a system to determine who makes it to the "championship." Once the final game/contest starts, though, all of the regular season results are completely washed away and do not affect the score in any way, shape, or form - period.

If your beef is with the qualification system, then suggest a better solution for that specific issue. I wouldn't even have an issue with Worlds just being a sign-yourself-up kind of thing if they would move the thing away from the sardine can Field House into a real venue.

There is a pretty significant thing stopping a gym from trying to do what you are suggesting would be a way to "game" the system. (Simply put together a turbo team, practice a few times, do one competition, and show up at Worlds and win.) The thing stopping that is that they would get destroyed by the seasoned teams that have been practicing/competing all year. (Not to mention that they would probably get destroyed at the bid-giving event first.)

Another issue is that Worlds is not the end-all-be-all only thing that matters to athletes. The nationals and other events are an end unto themselves. The "regular season" is what drives 98% of the athletes in the sport. In fact, several of our kids would RATHER win NCA than win Worlds. Basing the entire season of every all star athlete around what makes for the purest World Champion is kind of silly to me.

I was not suggesting that the EPs were evil by any means. That was sarcasm. They are business people JUST LIKE GYM OWNERS and generally want what is best for the industry. In fact you could easily argue that the typical EP is more interested in what is good for the all star industry as a whole than the typical gym owner is.

My (oversimplified) solution would be to require a paid USASF membership from ALL gyms, event producers, and all star athletes. This would be the primary source of revenue for the USASF. This would take the pressure off of Worlds to generate enough money to fund the entire budget for the USASF. Then Worlds is freed up to change its focus and many things could change that simply cannot now for financial reasons.

 

[newcheerdad]

If your beef is with the qualification system, then suggest a better solution for that specific issue. I wouldn't even have an issue with Worlds just being a sign-yourself-up kind of thing if they would move the thing away from the sardine can Field House into a real venue.

I have been a big proponent of this, actually. EP's can still give out paid bids, but allow any team to compete Worlds provided they participated in (x) number of USASF-sanctioned events in a World's division. Probably 70-80 percent of all Worlds-eligible teams are getting bids anyway, so why not drop the whole at-large premise and just open it up.

And yeah, I totally agree that Worlds needs to get out the Field House. I actually contend they need to get out of Disney altogether and move the competition to an actual sports arena.

Another issue is that Worlds is not the end-all-be-all only thing that matters to athletes. The nationals and other events are an end unto themselves. The "regular season" is what drives 98% of the athletes in the sport. In fact, several of our kids would RATHER win NCA than win Worlds. Basing the entire season of every all star athlete around what makes for the purest World Champion is kind of silly to me.

My daughter is part of a fairly large program that does not have a Worlds team. For those kids, doing well and/or winning at places like Jamfest Indy, UCA, or U.S. Finals is the pinnacle of their season. And I think sometimes we focus so much on Worlds teams that we forget that even at this mega programs, 80 percent (or more) of your kids aren't competing in Worlds divisions.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

It is not apples and oranges. Nearly every sport, whether it is HS football, MLB, World Cup Soccer, NBA, March Madness, Olympics, . . . has a system to determine who makes it to the "championship." Once the final game/contest starts, though, all of the regular season results are completely washed away and do not affect the score in any way, shape, or form - period.

If your beef is with the qualification system, then suggest a better solution for that specific issue. I wouldn't even have an issue with Worlds just being a sign-yourself-up kind of thing if they would move the thing away from the sardine can Field House into a real venue.

There is a pretty significant thing stopping a gym from trying to do what you are suggesting would be a way to "game" the system. (Simply put together a turbo team, practice a few times, do one competition, and show up at Worlds and win.) The thing stopping that is that they would get destroyed by the seasoned teams that have been practicing/competing all year. (Not to mention that they would probably get destroyed at the bid-giving event first.)

Another issue is that Worlds is not the end-all-be-all only thing that matters to athletes. The nationals and other events are an end unto themselves. The "regular season" is what drives 98% of the athletes in the sport. In fact, several of our kids would RATHER win NCA than win Worlds. Basing the entire season of every all star athlete around what makes for the purest World Champion is kind of silly to me.

I was not suggesting that the EPs were evil by any means. That was sarcasm. They are business people JUST LIKE GYM OWNERS and generally want what is best for the industry. In fact you could easily argue that the typical EP is more interested in what is good for the all star industry as a whole than the typical gym owner is.

My (oversimplified) solution would be to require a paid USASF membership from ALL gyms, event producers, and all star athletes. This would be the primary source of revenue for the USASF. This would take the pressure off of Worlds to generate enough money to fund the entire budget for the USASF. Then Worlds is freed up to change its focus and many things could change that simply cannot now for financial reasons.

My beef with the qualification system is that it does nothing to promote competition between the teams and other than the act of practicing and competing, and little or nothing to prepare these teams for how they are going to be judged at Worlds. Make the regular season events be a necessity for any team wanting to win Worlds by making each competition pertinent to the Worlds Score Sheet and standardize the judging so that you have a good idea how the routines will be scored. It is not so much to make people go to these competitions and help the EPs, but make them become valid preparations for the Worlds judging and thus encourage people to attend. For non Worlds divisions, let the nationals keep whatever system they desire. But every time I go to local or Nationals, the biggest audiences are for the Level 5 teams, so people want to see them and they want to see the teams compete against eachother. So do I. On USASF, I defer to your impression, but I do think they could make this happen.

 

[BlueCat]

You won't find a bigger proponent of a universal scoresheet than me.

Instead of changing the nationals scoresheets to look more like the Worlds ones, I would change the Worlds ones to look more like the nationals ones though. I am not a fan of gerrymandering the Worlds scoring system to try to figure out ways to handicap American teams. If anything, I would rather we were just upfront about it and say that all American teams start with a -25 score. Worlds, even the "international" divisions, is NOT about country vs. country - that is the ICU. It is about gym vs. gym regardless of what their address is.

 

[scottish_cheerleader]

They will have to follow the US lead I suppose with struture in their country and region. I'm not saying that counting Nationals in the final score is the only way or the best way, just throwing out a thought. Since there is no real structure now, you have a very valid point in my discussion.

I agree with where you are coming from but I know the UK for sure doesn't have the capacity to support that kind of system ( I cant speak for any other country). In scotland, for example, there are 2/3 competitive allgirl 5 teams, in the whole of UK you are lucky to get a division of 5 teams!! So basically everyone gets offered a bid, which I don't agree with... I'd love for them to have some kind of qualifying system internationally but most comps here have such outdated score sheets, tumbling is worth so little compared to american score sheets. It stops some teams form pushing our weak point and they focus heavily on stunting and dance because that's what will win you a national title and your bid to worlds!

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I agree with where you are coming from but I know the UK for sure doesn't have the capacity to support that kind of system ( I cant speak for any other country). In scotland, for example, there are 2/3 competitive allgirl 5 teams, in the whole of UK you are lucky to get a division of 5 teams!! So basically everyone gets offered a bid, which I don't agree with... I'd love for them to have some kind of qualifying system internationally but most comps here have such outdated score sheets, tumbling is worth so little compared to american score sheets. It stops some teams form pushing our weak point and they focus heavily on stunting and dance because that's what will win you a national title and your bid to worlds!

Big problem for me is that although we talk to a lot of people in SA, Europe an Asia, I really have NO IDEA what the environment for cheer is there and how it will effect your participation in Worlds. I suggest you keep posting and those of us interested will keep learning.

 

[scottish_cheerleader]

Big problem for me is that although we talk to a lot of people in SA, Europe an Asia, I really have NO IDEA what the environment for cheer is there and how it will effect your participation in Worlds. I suggest you keep posting and those of us interested will keep learning.

Thanks!