All-Star 2016 Summit Crossover Rules

[catlady]

That roster rule is to generous. I believe 80% of a small team and 85% of large teams who won the bid must compete at the Summit. Anything less than that should be an automatic .25 deduction.

I'd be ok with all of that. To substitute, you just have to have competed on whatever other team of your gym that was at the same competition where the team you are coming on to competed, if I understand the rule. 10 substitutions is half of a small team!

Then you all either live in very rooted areas, have unusually committed lower level athlete parents/athletes or you don't pay much attention to the lower level rosters. I can remember when I lived in St. Louis and Southwestern Bell moved to Dallas, I lost about 25% of my High School. Stuff happens and I don't picture even Suzie's mom flying Suzie in for Yth level 1 Summit practices, different commitment levels. The crossover rules are sufficient for this level of competition IMO, lower levels have a lot more turnover than World's teams. I'll concede as the unpopular opinion.

 

[Cheermom1969]

Then you all either live in very rooted areas, have unusually committed lower level athlete parents/athletes or you don't pay much attention to the lower level rosters. I can remember when I lived in St. Louis and Southwestern Bell moved to Dallas, I lost about 25% of my High School. Stuff happens and I don't picture even Suzie's mom flying Suzie in for Yth level 1 Summit practices, different commitment levels. The crossover rules are sufficient for this level of competition IMO, lower levels have a lot more turnover than World's teams. I'll concede as the unpopular opinion.

My daughter is on a J2 team. 20 girls. At the end of the season, we had the same 20 girls. No crossovers.

But leaving massive loopholes in the rules to allow for the sandbagging, I'm against.

If you can't bring the same team, or at least, say 75% of the same team that won the bid, then go get a new bid or don't go. If my daughter's team couldn't go because of such a rule, so be it.
We can't have it both ways where we want the Summit to be "the Worlds of the lower levels" and not have rules preventing the sandbagging of teams. The blatant sandbagging is what makes The Summit not a true best of the best, in my eyes.

 

[SarahS]

Then you all either live in very rooted areas, have unusually committed lower level athlete parents/athletes or you don't pay much attention to the lower level rosters. I can remember when I lived in St. Louis and Southwestern Bell moved to Dallas, I lost about 25% of my High School. Stuff happens and I don't picture even Suzie's mom flying Suzie in for Yth level 1 Summit practices, different commitment levels. The crossover rules are sufficient for this level of competition IMO, lower levels have a lot more turnover than World's teams. I'll concede as the unpopular opinion.

You don't *have* to replace athletes that leave for whatever reason (unless it bumps you from large to small, then you'll either need to replace athletes to stay in large or get a new bid - such is life). You are always able to rechoreograph with fewer athletes. The idea that crossovers are NECESSARY for any reason is a load of baloney. Do they make it easier sometimes, in some situations? Sure. But they're not necessary.

(Three times this year I had to rechoreograph the week of a competition because I was missing kids, due to injuries (sustained outside of cheerleading) or school problems. As we only have one team, we have no options for crossovers. You make it work. It is actually one of the things I like best about coaching - encountering challenges and making things work out.)

 

[Cheerleading Is My Life]

Then you all either live in very rooted areas, have unusually committed lower level athlete parents/athletes or you don't pay much attention to the lower level rosters. I can remember when I lived in St. Louis and Southwestern Bell moved to Dallas, I lost about 25% of my High School. Stuff happens and I don't picture even Suzie's mom flying Suzie in for Yth level 1 Summit practices, different commitment levels. The crossover rules are sufficient for this level of competition IMO, lower levels have a lot more turnover than World's teams. I'll concede as the unpopular opinion.

I have been cheerleading for 8 years and I think the most athletes that have quit from beginning to end of competition season is 1 on any given team. I have also been a crossover for 5 years so that's 13 different teams. This surprises me that your gym has such a high turnover during a season

 

[CheerDad18]

Then you all either live in very rooted areas, have unusually committed lower level athlete parents/athletes or you don't pay much attention to the lower level rosters. I can remember when I lived in St. Louis and Southwestern Bell moved to Dallas, I lost about 25% of my High School. Stuff happens and I don't picture even Suzie's mom flying Suzie in for Yth level 1 Summit practices, different commitment levels. The crossover rules are sufficient for this level of competition IMO, lower levels have a lot more turnover than World's teams. I'll concede as the unpopular opinion.

My daughters J3 team qualified the last 2 years 100% of those teams that qualified went. At the beginning of the year our gym puts on the schedule the Summit and that the gym will accept any at large or paid. As a parent you are required to acknowledge that as a financial commitment. The gym has also informed parents that athletes who can not go to Summit will be replaced for Summit meaning one person can not say I am not going so the whole team does not go. The gym has received 12 summit bids in 2 years a cross level 1 thru 4 not one kid or parent has declined to go. We are not a big gym.

Sorry if you can't go without replacing more than 4 girls on a small squad 6 on a large squad don't go. That type of a roster rule would also prevent teams throwing a bunch of higher level athletes on a team for a single competition just to win a bid .

 

[randomactsofcheer]

Then you all either live in very rooted areas, have unusually committed lower level athlete parents/athletes or you don't pay much attention to the lower level rosters. I can remember when I lived in St. Louis and Southwestern Bell moved to Dallas, I lost about 25% of my High School. Stuff happens and I don't picture even Suzie's mom flying Suzie in for Yth level 1 Summit practices, different commitment levels. The crossover rules are sufficient for this level of competition IMO, lower levels have a lot more turnover than World's teams. I'll concede as the unpopular opinion.

The level 3 and 4 teams at CP's gym that went to Summit attended with all the original members (minus 1 with an injury). CP's mini team only lost 1 girl right before the last competition of the season. The level 1 and 2 teams remained the same throughout the year, as well. I think the level 2 team had 2 injuries mid-season but the girls recovered and made it to the last competition. CP's gym is in the city with the highest concentration of military personnel in the nation, so we definitely don't live in a rooted area. There are a good amount of kids at the gym with a parent who is in the military. I would think that there would be a higher than usual turnover rate throughout the year at her gym. But there isn't.

 

[twincheermom]

Then you all either live in very rooted areas, have unusually committed lower level athlete parents/athletes or you don't pay much attention to the lower level rosters. I can remember when I lived in St. Louis and Southwestern Bell moved to Dallas, I lost about 25% of my High School. Stuff happens and I don't picture even Suzie's mom flying Suzie in for Yth level 1 Summit practices, different commitment levels. The crossover rules are sufficient for this level of competition IMO, lower levels have a lot more turnover than World's teams. I'll concede as the unpopular opinion.

My daughters were on the J2 that won Summit this year. They had 19 kids and those same 19 competed at every single competition. I can't imagine any one of them quitting for any reason. I guess things happen, but these 19 kids and families made it work for everyone to attend every comp.

For the person that said maybe lower level teams wouldn't notice if there was a cheerleader competing from the wrong level---by Summit, we had competed against most of the top 10 teams in our division already, some multiple times. Our coach would definitely notice if there was someone new on some of these teams and I wouldn't be surprised if they would notice if we did the same. For quite a few routines, I felt like I "knew" the routine almost as well as my own girls' as I had seen it so many times.

 

[omgitssydthekid]

My daughters were on the J2 that won Summit this year. They had 19 kids and those same 19 competed at every single competition. I can't imagine any one of them quitting for any reason. I guess things happen, but these 19 kids and families made it work for everyone to attend every comp.

For the person that said maybe lower level teams wouldn't notice if there was a cheerleader competing from the wrong level---by Summit, we had competed against most of the top 10 teams in our division already, some multiple times. Our coach would definitely notice if there was someone new on some of these teams and I wouldn't be surprised if they would notice if we did the same. For quite a few routines, I felt like I "knew" the routine almost as well as my own girls' as I had seen it so many times.

To be fair, coaches don't have a lot of time to watch teams other than their own at competitions. There was a gym my j1 competed against at every competition but one and I never saw their routine once. We were often in the practice room when they were competing, or something of the like. If I am able to watch teams we compete against, I will, but I'm usually running around all day meeting teams, warming up, in the practice room, competing, getting kids back to their parents, doing score check, or anything else that happens to come up that day.


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[twincheermom]

To be fair, coaches don't have a lot of time to watch teams other than their own at competitions. There was a gym my j1 competed against at every competition but one and I never saw their routine once. We were often in the practice room when they were competing, or something of the like. If I am able to watch teams we compete against, I will, but I'm usually running around all day meeting teams, warming up, in the practice room, competing, getting kids back to their parents, doing score check, or anything else that happens to come up that day.


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You're right. Coaches might not, but crazy cheer moms who watch their kids entire division every time might! LOL!!!;)

 

[Ashley]

Though the tumbling is harder for level 6; you don't see a lot of athletes performing level 6 skills (like a few). But I see what your trying to do there. But I think it's Worlds athletes is how I took it.

And in an international division at worlds, tumbling is such a small part of the scoresheet, that I wouldn't think the tumbling would make much of a difference.

And as far as stunting (and this isn't directed at you), I wouldn't even necessarily say level 6 stunting skills are harder than level 4, just different (obviously many elite level 6 skills are harder). A kick full basket is probably more difficult than a tuck toss (I certainly can't do one). On the Varsity scoresheet for level 6, you have to do a certain number of level 6 OR level 5 skills to get in that top range. Plenty of athletes who never progress past level 4 do just fine on a level 6 team. When we've had kids from our senior teams on our level 6 teams, I've always seen it as more of an opportunity for them to try something new. I would never really imagine that they're sandbagging on a level 4 team because they compete on level 6 - which practices barely more than once a week.

(ETA: I did see a standing double in warmups at worlds, but I forget what team that was. Claw 6 maybe?)

 

[CatFan22]

(ETA: I did see a standing double in warmups at worlds, but I forget what team that was. Claw 6 maybe?)

Yes, that was Claw6.

 

[Cheerleading Is My Life]

And in an international division at worlds, tumbling is such a small part of the scoresheet, that I wouldn't think the tumbling would make much of a difference.

And as far as stunting (and this isn't directed at you), I wouldn't even necessarily say level 6 stunting skills are harder than level 4, just different (obviously many elite level 6 skills are harder). A kick full basket is probably more difficult than a tuck toss (I certainly can't do one). On the Varsity scoresheet for level 6, you have to do a certain number of level 6 OR level 5 skills to get in that top range. Plenty of athletes who never progress past level 4 do just fine on a level 6 team. When we've had kids from our senior teams on our level 6 teams, I've always seen it as more of an opportunity for them to try something new. I would never really imagine that they're sandbagging on a level 4 team because they compete on level 6 - which practices barely more than once a week.

(ETA: I did see a standing double in warmups at worlds, but I forget what team that was. Claw 6 maybe?)

This is basically my situation this season. I'm graduating this year but taking a year off to work, so I'm hoping to be on both our senior 4 and io6 team.

 

[catlady]

@twincheermom @randomactsofcheer @CheerDad18 @Cheerleading Is My Life @SarahS @Cheermom1969 lol, I didn't mean to make our gym sound like a revolving door. It plays by the rules and uses crossovers that are age and level appropriate only when needed for injuries and people quitting/moving late in the year, which is usually rare. I'm leery of a roster rule because my daughter, while on her Sr 2 team, experienced a lot of turnover, they DID NOT replace them with crossovers, they did replace them with kids that walked in the door that wanted to tryout throughout the year with age and level appropriate skills. Atlanta is a transient city but, most were life things, moving, finances, sick parent, poor grades, more commitment than expected, etc. A Sr. 1 and Sr. 2 team are not going to have the same level of commitment that World's team does (those kids will fly back and forth to practice if they move or live for a few months with a host family). Also, not all gyms make their members commit to a year long contract (commitment), many gyms front load things so it is pay as you go.

That Sr. 2 team did go to the Summit that year with age and level appropriate kids that were replaced throughout the year as the others left. They received their bid at UCA in March so, they would have been fine with the roster rules at that time, and all but two went to the Summit (finances and college cheer tryouts) . I don't believe under the current rules of crossovers, only going up or down one level, there is a huge loophole left to manipulate. A gym would have to have access to quite a few, outside the gym, level 4 and 5 cheerleaders to add them to a level 2 team, I don't see that happening. Since the Summit is a Varsity event, they would have the rosters from all of the Nationals if they want to check on crossovers, otherwise, Suzie does a good job of comparing photos and vidoes.

 

[AlwaysLearning]

Why couldn't this have been released before most gyms had tryouts and placed teams?

Maybe it's USASF's way of saying try-outs should be held later?

Exactly! I don't think tryouts (for Worlds/Summit hopeful gyms) should begin until at least the week after Summit. How do you hold tryouts, place kids on new teams then say "One last comp next weekend!"??? Let the season end first before you move on.

Why can't they announce "any changes to rules will be announced by (enter date)"? I understand wanting to wait until Summit is over. Then gyms can make their own decision to take a chance and create teams before that date. I would hate to be the coach who has to go to Suzy and say "sorry you can't be on one of your teams now" and poor Suzy who got her hopes only to have them pulled out from under her.

The alternates/roster rule similar to worlds is what is missing here.

I feel usasf/Varsity (whoever it was) has made a big step in the right direction with the changes so far. I hope the next change is related to rosters/alternates for the whole season. Other sports do this and it dramatically reduces the amount of sandbagging that goes on.

This is not directed at you at all, I'm just using this thought as a jumping off point. I keep hearing people say "We have to stop sandbagging" quickly followed by "But that won't work with my small gym". To move forward as a sport we all have to understand that creating rules will put some teams in a difficult spot. It's the harsh reality of trying to make everyone play fair.

I've been on the losing side of that and it's not fun, but we knew the rules and accepted it. My son has played (more than once) 9v11 soccer games against teams we knew were going to beat us. The only kids we could have pulled to play were higher level kids that were prohibited from playing down to avoid stacking teams to win. It wasn't always fun for them, but it taught them great life lessons that couldn't have been taught if we had pulled those kids in to fill the roster.

I really hope people are thinking long and hard before requesting World's roster rules for lower levels.

I agree. We have to think about how any rule changes would affect all levels and various situations. What works for Worlds won't necessarily work for Summit, but I think locked team rosters with some rules accounting for team changes should be created.

These changes are a good start. In order for things to continue to improve, we need to reach out to the various EP's and encourage them to adopt the same rules for ALL of their competitions. The more continuity we have between competitions all season long the stronger this sport will become.


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[luv2cheer92]

@twincheermom @randomactsofcheer @CheerDad18 @Cheerleading Is My Life @SarahS @Cheermom1969 lol, I didn't mean to make our gym sound like a revolving door. It plays by the rules and uses crossovers that are age and level appropriate only when needed for injuries and people quitting/moving late in the year, which is usually rare. I'm leery of a roster rule because my daughter, while on her Sr 2 team, experienced a lot of turnover, they DID NOT replace them with crossovers, they did replace them with kids that walked in the door that wanted to tryout throughout the year with age and level appropriate skills. Atlanta is a transient city but, most were life things, moving, finances, sick parent, poor grades, more commitment than expected, etc. A Sr. 1 and Sr. 2 team are not going to have the same level of commitment that World's team does (those kids will fly back and forth to practice if they move or live for a few months with a host family). Also, not all gyms make their members commit to a year long contract (commitment), many gyms front load things so it is pay as you go.

That Sr. 2 team did go to the Summit that year with age and level appropriate kids that were replaced throughout the year as the others left. They received their bid at UCA in March so, they would have been fine with the roster rules at that time, and all but two went to the Summit (finances and college cheer tryouts) . I don't believe under the current rules of crossovers, only going up or down one level, there is a huge loophole left to manipulate. A gym would have to have access to quite a few, outside the gym, level 4 and 5 cheerleaders to add them to a level 2 team, I don't see that happening. Since the Summit is a Varsity event, they would have the rosters from all of the Nationals if they want to check on crossovers, otherwise, Suzie does a good job of comparing photos and vidoes.

I think the only way for the "loopholes" to not work would be if a gym has most or all of their teams get bids. If only a couple teams get bids then they could place higher level kids on those teams. If S2 gets a bid and S4 doesn't, then kids from S4 could compete on the S2 team, not requiring kids from outside the gym.