All-Star 2021 Worlds - Day 3 Discussion

luv2cheer92

Original Poster
Staff member
FBOD:LLFB
Mar 15, 2011
9,274
15,359
3,726
29
DFW
totalcheerperformance.com
Role:
Athlete
When a team who scored half of your score with more than 15 points in deductions but scores/places better than u in stunts....something is wrong!!!!
I wouldn't make that as a blanket statement. I could think of instances where that could happen and be perfectly normal. Not saying it was, but without seeing the routines or knowing the details, that seems like a generalization that wouldn't always be true.
 
Feb 4, 2010
371
491
2,616
Here's an idea:

How about scoring. teams. on. the. Worlds. scoring. system. all. season?

The issue is folks are scored on the Varsity sheet all year getting 99.this and 99.that all season with different deductions, etc.

Then we get to Worlds and everyone is so shocked because omg what do you mean we have hit zero and got 99.8 all season.

Consistency would help.

I mean, think about something like the NFL, If a touchdown was 6 points all season, then in the Super Bowl, it became 3 points, that would be nonsensical.

Yes! The Worlds scoring system works better, and I would like to see it (or something similar) implemented all season long. Scoring out of 100 makes people equate it with grades in school where 90= A and 60= F. Scoring 60 out of 100 feels much worse than scoring 110 out of 150. And I think that's part of the reason why every team scores above 90 on the Varsity scoresheet unless they're an epic disaster. A's for everyone! You eliminate that school grading comparison if you score out of 150 (or anything other than 100).

Judges need room to properly place teams instead of needing the scores to be like 99.1, 99, 99, 99, 98.9, 98.8... Granted, Level 1-3 routines are more likely to be very similar in skill, which naturally produces a lot of close scores, but it must be easier to rank teams properly when you can actually spread them out (it would also reduce the number of ties).

It shouldn't be easier to score higher in Non-Tumbling than in a regular division, it shouldn't be easier to score higher in Level 1 than in Level 6 (which tends to happen, because it's easier to hit your back walkover and thigh stand than more difficult and risky skills). What does that lead to? A ton of NT teams who no longer bother tumbling because they can get the same glory without it.

Switching up the judging system just for this one competition can potentially be confusing for coaches, fans, and even judges. I'd rather they use this Worlds system for everything.

People have been talking about Cali Vixen's dance score dropping dramatically from Day 1 to Day 2, which is one flaw I see with the Worlds system. I might eliminate the dance section all together in favor of a general "Performance" section that takes into account dance, energy level, overall delivery of the routine, etc. Yeah that's more vague and subjective, but I think judges need that wiggle room so that they don't have to give a team a drastically lower dance score on Day 2 for the identical dance they did on Day 1, which looks fishy whether you believe Vixens should have won or not. But other than that, the judging seemed good throughout the week from what I saw.
 

luv2cheer92

Original Poster
Staff member
FBOD:LLFB
Mar 15, 2011
9,274
15,359
3,726
29
DFW
totalcheerperformance.com
Role:
Athlete
Yes! The Worlds scoring system works better, and I would like to see it (or something similar) implemented all season long. Scoring out of 100 makes people equate it with grades in school where 90= A and 60= F. Scoring 60 out of 100 feels much worse than scoring 110 out of 150. And I think that's part of the reason why every team scores above 90 on the Varsity scoresheet unless they're an epic disaster. A's for everyone! You eliminate that school grading comparison if you score out of 150 (or anything other than 100).

Judges need room to properly place teams instead of needing the scores to be like 99.1, 99, 99, 99, 98.9, 98.8... Granted, Level 1-3 routines are more likely to be very similar in skill, which naturally produces a lot of close scores, but it must be easier to rank teams properly when you can actually spread them out (it would also reduce the number of ties).

It shouldn't be easier to score higher in Non-Tumbling than in a regular division, it shouldn't be easier to score higher in Level 1 than in Level 6 (which tends to happen, because it's easier to hit your back walkover and thigh stand than more difficult and risky skills). What does that lead to? A ton of NT teams who no longer bother tumbling because they can get the same glory without it.

Switching up the judging system just for this one competition can potentially be confusing for coaches, fans, and even judges. I'd rather they use this Worlds system for everything.

People have been talking about Cali Vixen's dance score dropping dramatically from Day 1 to Day 2, which is one flaw I see with the Worlds system. I might eliminate the dance section all together in favor of a general "Performance" section that takes into account dance, energy level, overall delivery of the routine, etc. Yeah that's more vague and subjective, but I think judges need that wiggle room so that they don't have to give a team a drastically lower dance score on Day 2 for the identical dance they did on Day 1, which looks fishy whether you believe Vixens should have won or not. But other than that, the judging seemed good throughout the week from what I saw.
100% agree. Worlds scoring is so much better, and I find way easier to make more accurate. I would even be ok with them keeping more of a rubric for Varsity like they have, but increasing the max score and/or widening the ranges. Having to separate teams out by .1 of a point is way harder than 5 points (or more). And to be honest, its easier on the athletes who lose by larger margins. Losing by the smallest margins like that is still possible (Steel), but way less common.

One thing that definitely needs to stay year round are the Worlds deductions. Please. Teams getting hit harder may make them rethink throwing things they aren't ready for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tojofasho
Oct 14, 2012
4,913
7,333
871
Role:
Retired From Cheer
The Flo/Varsity video scenario is incredibly frustrating. I still don't understand the legal system where a large company can argue that images of a California All Star (minor) athlete, on a California All Star team, in a California All Star uniform, performing a routine choreographed by a California All Star choreographer, coached by a California All Star coach, performed to music purchased by California All Stars, performing in a event the California All Stars paid to attend - are owned and controlled by Varsity/Flo because they rented the building that day. I have had legal types explain it to me, but it feels fundamentally wrong.
id be curious to know the contract workings/details that flosports and varsity have with each other.... and what that has to do with individual gyms. I dont get how flosports has so many rights to any video of any comp recorded by any random spectator. i know previously people mentioned due to copyright issues due to music, but that cant be the only reason flosports can claim any video as theirs... im just massively confused why they have THAT much control over the sport.
 

cheermomforever

Cheer Parent
May 16, 2012
3,344
3,140
1,016
Role:
Parent
I wouldn't make that as a blanket statement. I could think of instances where that could happen and be perfectly normal. Not saying it was, but without seeing the routines or knowing the details, that seems like a generalization that wouldn't always be true.
In this case.....Not a blanket statement but from one of our team results...
 

cupieqt

Person everyone wants to meet this season
Cheer Parent
Jan 24, 2011
7,183
21,179
4,271
Louisiana
Role:
Coach
It feels very gross that performance can dictate a winner. It’s like a creepy man telling me “you are much prettier when you smile” and then giving me a reward if I do it. If our sport is about skills, skills should win Worlds.
THIS hits me so hard bc I’ve always felt this way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CoachTamara
Dec 28, 2009
2,970
11,345
4,211
California
Role:
Coach
I never thought about it that way.

I mean, honestly is that not what just happened to Vixens? They beat PCM in every skill category and lost in dance and performance. So some judge decided they didn’t smile enough? Because they had the skills. Nobody is arguing those scores.

Also, I feel terrible for PCM. They had a great performance, and they did nothing wrong in all of this.
 

luv2cheer92

Original Poster
Staff member
FBOD:LLFB
Mar 15, 2011
9,274
15,359
3,726
29
DFW
totalcheerperformance.com
Role:
Athlete
In this case.....Not a blanket statement but from one of our team results...
I wouldn't compare a final score and deductions to just a stunt score though. There is way more to a routine than stunts. Its entirely possible for a team to have the best stunt in the division and score that poorly. I just think it would be better to compare stunt vs. stunt.
Not saying its not an accurate score. But saying how could a team score high in stunts but have a low score, isn't a good comparison to me.
 
Jun 3, 2014
2,321
4,856
811
The Most Populated Timezone on the Planet
Role:
Fan
Guys, I’m actually so sad that I can barely find any routines from this past weekend on YouTube.

My favourite thing to do, post-Worlds, is to re-watch routines with music and audience reactions. Flo Cheer has really robbed us of one of the joys of following All Star Cheerleading.

Just last week, I was following the Chinese Artistic Gymnastics Nationals. They have no need for a capacity limit, so everytime a gymnast sticks a landing, the audience ROARS. The best part? I get to re-watch them.

I miss that for Cheer.
 
May 25, 2015
53
67
141
Role:
Athlete
It feels very gross that performance can dictate a winner. It’s like a creepy man telling me “you are much prettier when you smile” and then giving me a reward if I do it. If our sport is about skills, skills should win Worlds.

If you would’ve asked me a few years ago if performance should matter I would’ve said absolutely but when you put it this way I completely agree... In fact, performance is my favorite thing about all star cheer but as I’ve gotten older I realize that all the shimmying, stomping, and uncoordinated chin pops just make the whole team look sloppy and bouncy. Plus, like you said, it’s far too subjective.
Skills are skills. Let those determine your win.
 
Feb 4, 2010
371
491
2,616
Guys, I’m actually so sad that I can barely find any routines from this past weekend on YouTube.

My favourite thing to do, post-Worlds, is to re-watch routines with music and audience reactions. Flo Cheer has really robbed us of one of the joys of following All Star Cheerleading.

Just last week, I was following the Chinese Artistic Gymnastics Nationals. They have no need for a capacity limit, so everytime a gymnast sticks a landing, the audience ROARS. The best part? I get to re-watch them.

I miss that for Cheer.

I totally agree. Fan cam videos from Worlds where you can actually see/hear the audience react as they're watching the routines are some of the best things. Seeing videos like that of the actual Worlds atmosphere inspires people to want to go to Worlds themselves, either as participants or spectators. Keeping the entire sport hidden behind a paywall just cannot be good long-term. And even people who do pay cannot enjoy any routines from Worlds, unless you like watching as if you are deaf.
 
Jun 3, 2014
2,321
4,856
811
The Most Populated Timezone on the Planet
Role:
Fan
Curious does performance count for Acro & Tumbling, Stunt, and/or team USA?
If you're referring to the F.I.G. disciplines, no, they do not... not exactly.

I can't speak for T&T, but if you look at the CoP for Acrobatic Gymnastics, there is a component for what one might consider as "performance".

ARTICLE 44: ARTISTIC JUDGING
Artistic evaluation is not only “WHAT” the competitor(s) perform but also “HOW” they perform and
“WHERE” they perform it.


44.1 For Artistic the following Artistry criteria are evaluated in a positive way using the provided
scale:
Partnership Maximum 2.0
Expression Maximum 2.0
Performance Maximum 2.0
Creativity Maximum 2.0
Musicality Maximum 2.0
Artistry is judged on all the criteria in the Artistic Section of the COP by using the provided
scale.


44.2 DESCRIPTIONS of the criteria:

1. Partnership
Partnership selection that creates a logical relationship between individuals in pair or
groups that is characterised by a visible connection.

2. Expression
• Making the audience understand your thoughts or feelings, character, attitude.
• Gymnasts convey a particular emotion.
ACRO COP 2017-2020 (vs 27 Feb 2017) 42

3. Performance
The act, process or art of performing by using amplitude, space, pathways, levels,
Synchronization .

4. Creativity
Display imagination, originality, inventiveness, inspiration,
Variation in : composition , entries / exits, elements.

5. Musicality
Gymnasts express the music throughout the performance:
• Match movement and form to the rhythm, melody and mood of the music being played.
• Synchronise with music beats.
• Vary the magnitude or speed / tempo of movements with music.
• Use expressive movements that are influenced by melody, variations in rhythm and
mood or combinations of these.