All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[CEA_ATC]

I think you may have misunderstood my comment because that's pretty close to the opposite of how I was thinking. Everyone has different opinions on sandbagging and what classifies it and that's fine.
I don't think my opinion of how CEA is run is any secret on here, but just because it's not my cup of tea doesn't mean it doesn't work for others, which is great!

I knew how you were putting it. The "thank you" was more for saying that some kids crossing to both really are level 3 kids who have a job on a level 5... And that job is not tumbling.

I am also aware that how crossovers are seen depends a lot on the uniform of who is doing that crossover for many on Fierceboard. I have seen a lot of level 5 kids today on teams lower than that... But crickets on them.

 

[luv2cheer92]

I knew how you were putting it. The "thank you" was more for saying that some kids crossing to both really are level 3 kids who have a job on a level 5... And that job is not tumbling.

I am also aware that how crossovers are seen depends a lot on the uniform of who is doing that crossover for many on Fierceboard. I have seen a lot of level 5 kids today on teams lower than that... But crickets on them.

My point earlier that I think you were referring to is that tumbling isn't everything. Using your cp as an example since you mentioned her (by no means trying to call her or her gym out), but you said she is a beast base, to me I would assume (could be wrong, feel free to correct me) that she is a level 5 base if she is on a level 5 team. To me, that makes her a level 5 athlete, even if she isn't a level 5 tumbler. I'm sure many don't agree with that and that's fine, just sharing my POV and where others may be coming from when they talk about sandbagging.

And trust me, I side-eye any team that crosses athletes that aren't the same level, not gym-specific.

 

[klynn64]

Thank you for this. My CP happens to be on the two most notorious Youth teams in the business, it seems. She does NOT have level 5 tumbling skills, not even close, but is in her second year on Youth Elite. She is there because she is aBEAST base and a great dancer. To be honest, at the moment, she isn't even a level three tumbler (d@mn tumble block)... But on Fierceboard, my kid is "sandbagging". I'm like: "What the what?". The comment someone made earlier about "when they cross up to level 5, that is what they are" is simply ludicrous.

I have discussed at length in here about the way CSP does things, and this GP/YE thing is more of the same for most of the crossovers: you get placed on one "appropriate" team for your skills and one "stretch" team that may be a bit out of your range, but will push you. That is how my child is on YE and GP. Glitter Penguins are appropriate for her, and Youth Elite is a stretch... But it makes her better.

I don't feel a kid can sandbag. A team or gym can sandbag but not an individual. One individual does not fit the definition of sandbagging. In addition, what you're describing should never be considered sandbagging since in essence she's crossing up not down. I recognize that for the casual observer it's difficult to discern whether an individual is crossing up or down without supplemental information. It's all simply viewed as crossing over and looked upon relatively unfavorably amongst most competitors.

In my experience nobody cries foul over the use of a crossover. Not even the use of 2, 3, or 4 crossovers. It becomes an issue when a large amount of athletes on a team are crossovers. And/or the crossovers perform at more than two levels beneath the level of their primary team. In the absence of a skills assessment I think most people assume an athletes skill level equates to the level in which the athletes primary team competes.

Cheer is so competitive. Although your CP may be a crossover on the level 5 team to be challenged or "stretched" ( and I can appreciate that). If that same team has 10 additional crossovers being "stretched" as well, I don't believe it. Gyms like winning. And you can't win as a Level 5 team ful of Level 3 athletes.

 

[KDCheerMom]

I would much rather be competing against a Level 3 team that had athletes on the team that crossed up rather than crossed down. Yes, they are both crossing over. But there's no risk of sandbagging when athletes are crossing up (assuming the athletes are on level appropriate teams to start with).

Unless you are now that level 2 team competing against those supposed cross over level 3 athletes. Unfortunately it is all going to depend on your perspective. I also think it is hard to judge an athletes level just on tumbling. I see some very little ones throwing all kinds of tumbling but that does not mean they are consistent in a routine or are good at that level for stunting.

 

[Cheer Dad]

Thank you for this. My CP happens to be on the two most notorious Youth teams in the business, it seems. She does NOT have level 5 tumbling skills, not even close, but is in her second year on Youth Elite. She is there because she is aBEAST base and a great dancer. To be honest, at the moment, she isn't even a level three tumbler (d@mn tumble block)... But on Fierceboard, my kid is "sandbagging". I'm like: "What the what?". The comment someone made earlier about "when they cross up to level 5, that is what they are" is simply ludicrous.

I have discussed at length in here about the way CSP does things, and this GP/YE thing is more of the same for most of the crossovers: you get placed on one "appropriate" team for your skills and one "stretch" team that may be a bit out of your range, but will push you. That is how my child is on YE and GP. Glitter Penguins are appropriate for her, and Youth Elite is a stretch... But it makes her better.

We have notorious teams in the business?



**Show of hands, who thinks their vague booking about changing gyms is so clever we don't understand it?**

 

[dawgshow]

Perception is often more powerful than the truth. If a group looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, they'll get treated like a duck even if they're really a goose. Don't want to be accused of abusing the loopholes? Don't do it.

 

[luv2cheer92]

Perception is often more powerful than the truth. If a group looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, they'll get treated like a duck even if they're really a goose. Don't want to be accused of abusing the loopholes? Don't do it.

Yes!!!! Can I shimmy this 1000 times?

 

[Mom2Cheergirls]

Thank you for this. My CP happens to be on the two most notorious Youth teams in the business, it seems. She does NOT have level 5 tumbling skills, not even close, but is in her second year on Youth Elite. She is there because she is aBEAST base and a great dancer. To be honest, at the moment, she isn't even a level three tumbler (d@mn tumble block)... But on Fierceboard, my kid is "sandbagging". I'm like: "What the what?". The comment someone made earlier about "when they cross up to level 5, that is what they are" is simply ludicrous.

I have discussed at length in here about the way CSP does things, and this GP/YE thing is more of the same for most of the crossovers: you get placed on one "appropriate" team for your skills and one "stretch" team that may be a bit out of your range, but will push you. That is how my child is on YE and GP. Glitter Penguins are appropriate for her, and Youth Elite is a stretch... But it makes her better.

I would say if your child is a beast base on a level 5 team and is a great dancer has been on there for 2 years then she belongs at that team. Basing level 3 and basing level 5 there is a great big difference and it would be sandbagging to bring her down to a level 3 team. Tumbling is only a part of a routine. A youth level 5 base on a youth 3 team for stunting and pyramid does have an unfair advantage over a team that has bases who are truly developing and working on their level 3 basing skills. I think it is great that it makes her better but it is not fair for a gym to load up a level 3 team with level 5 athletes no matter what reason the gym has determined them to be ready to compete on a level 5 team. I think it is wrong and unfair.

 

[CEA_ATC]

I would say if your child is a beast base on a level 5 team and is a great dancer has been on there for 2 years then she belongs at that team. Basing level 3 and basing level 5 there is a great big difference and it would be sandbagging to bring her down to a level 3 team. Tumbling is only a part of a routine. A youth level 5 base on a youth 3 team for stunting and pyramid does have an unfair advantage over a team that has bases who are truly developing and working on their level 3 basing skills. I think it is great that it makes her better but it is not fair for a gym to load up a level 3 team with level 5 athletes no matter what reason the gym has determined them to be ready to compete on a level 5 team. I think it is wrong and unfair.

So my kid NEVER gets to tumble on the competition mat according to your little rule about "what's fair"? She never gets to be a kid who gets to do that part?

 

[Mom2Cheergirls]

So my kid NEVER gets to tumble on the competition mat according to your little rule about "what's fair"? She never gets to be a kid who gets to do that part?

"My little rule about what is fair?" I think it is wrong but until it is a rule your kid gets to do it. I never said it was a rule but I think it should be and I am certainly in my right to say a team that takes a bunch of level 5 athletes down to level 3 is at an unfair advantage. Would you say at 2 years as a base on a level 5 team your daughter has no advantage to a true level 3 CP basing?

I seriously doubt that CEA is doing this just so these kids have their time to shine at tumbling. Perhaps you could report how many other kids on the Youth 3 team are also on Y5 - because it isn't about one kid filling in here lets get this straight it is about a gym taking a good number of athletes who are succeeding on a level 5 team and bringing them down to a level 3 team - age doesn't matter it isn't right at a Senior level or a Youth.

Your gym made the choice (along with you and your daughter) to be put on a level 5 team knowing where all of her skills were at and as you say she is excelling in many areas and this is her second year on this level 5 team. But clearly the difference in her basing skills as a second year level 5 base compared to a level 3 athlete doesn't put her team that did this with multiple athletes at an advantage? And advantage or not it really doesn't matter because your child doesn't get a tumble pass unless she is on Y3?

The fact is kids nugget in different areas of weakness on many teams for many different reasons from level 1 to level 5. Choices are made. It is sand bagging for a gym to put multiple kids down 2 levels regardless if it is Youth, Junior, Senior, Open - you may not like the term, you may feel there are individual pluses for you to do that but it doesn't change the situation as a whole.

It is done by the gym to make their Y3 team stronger (to which I note they do have a Summit bid along with the Y5 team) the bonus is your CP then gets to do a tumble pass and compete on 2 teams at Summit. But I am sure the true Y3 teams that you all went against when the Y3 got their Summit bid will think it is fair because your child got to do her tumble pass.

I have to say based on comments you have made on other thread about the fairness on how Summit bids have worked for Y5 athletes I am a bit surprised at your justification of the fairness of Y5 athletes going down to Y3 just so they can do a tumble pass? I have agreed with you on much of that and this just feels like you are picking and choosing what is fair on what is best for your individual child. AND I do understand as a parent wanting a child to compete in all aspects of cheer in a competition. BUT I go back to it being fair to the whole (the teams you are competing against at Y3), making an individual choice and gym choice about where a CP is placed, and the fact that many kids nugget on the one team they are on many teams and gyms (and those kids won't be going to Summit like your CP is - certainly not on 2 teams). BY the way in saying this is not fair it doesn't take away any of the hard work or skill your child has and is in no way directed to your individual child - but I think if indeed CEA has brought a number of athletes down 2 levels it is not right - regardless if it is the only way those girls tumble.

 

[TheVipersMom]

My kid is on a level 3 team in which she clearly has all the tumbling for and she isn't even in squad tumbling ... Like she could do it and she doesn't even get to do it... She is hidden - That's not fair!!!!!
Not everyone gets to do everything in every routine... And that just sucks but it doesn't mean it has to be fair.


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[CEA_ATC]

I discuss this from my child's perspective because it is the only one I can (and should) speak from. There are more aspects to this than "so she can do a tumble pass". Becoming a complete cheerleader is part of it for many of the crossovers (tumbling for non tumblers, basing/backspotting for some flyers, maybe getting to dance in the front for once, and for mine- a bit more of a leader role than on YE). I would honestly say about half of the crossovers are "crossing up" and about half "crossing down" if you use tumble skills as the delineator (which is what a LOT of what we use to determine that for an individual). No matter how much we discuss this team, no one is convincing someone who is set for or against of anything, IMHO.

Personal opinion about why we have this team anyway: we all know CSP wants the Y5 division to stay around. Part of keeping it is building a "feeder" system of athletes who are ready for it. I think GP might be part of that, as well... Taking kids who have potential but aren't ready for YE yet and giving them a team that has the same kind of "feel" to see how they hold up. Being on YE can be pressure packed, and not all hold up. No inside info at all there... Just a guess.

As far as Summit- We know we are blessed to be able to compete twice. But please nobody think that the Y3 team is any sort of walk in the park. My CP swears the GP routine is harder than YE for her. And they have not been unbeatable by any means... Glitter took us out twice already.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

So my kid NEVER gets to tumble on the competition mat according to your little rule about "what's fair"? She never gets to be a kid who gets to do that part?

This is the most ridiculous post ever.

My daughter has never tumbled in a competition. Never. She's TWENTY years old. Because her tumbling was level 2 and her team was level 5 (or 3, or 4, depending on the year). So we should have crossed her to a level 2 team so she could shine?

If I was that worried about my child shining and getting to do everything, I probably wouldn't sign her up for a TEAM activity.

 

[MZ3]

As a Y3 mama, it's hard to justify to my CP when she sees a certain flyer from Y3 who crosses to Y5 and also J5. You cannot tell me those level 3 stunts aren't easier and going to be more solid. Also we have no crosses between our Y3 and Y5 at CP's gym.


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[amy1k]

This conversation is exactly why I, personally, got so annoyed by the free y5 summit bids. If a team isn't maxed out skill-wise, I'm not surprised that they can't score high enough to earn a bid over another team. If half of a team is crossing up, how could they?