All-Star D2 Summit Rule Changes

[cheer25mom]

Well say you have two gym's, 70 athletes each. Profit for one year is (and I'm a coach I have no idea what a gym brings in, so I'm making these costs up) $10,000 per gym. This year, you want to go all in and take a few teams to Summit. Everyone knows that location 1 is the better gym, they have 4 Summit caliber teams, location 2 only has 1 team that could have a chance at winning Summit. The owner of the gyms uses the profit from gym 1 AND gym 2 to hire amazing choreography for all 5 Summit Teams. The money from gym 2 is helping gym 1 more than gym 2.

The following year owner can say "2 Locationz All Star" brought 5 teams to Summit last year and 4 out of 5 moved to finals, come join a winning program!

I don't think this is at all a realistic scenario. No gym of 70 athletes has $10,000 laying around to hire choreographers. Nowhere close. I don't know of a gym of 70 that could afford to do any of what you are describing. At $3000 per athlete per year, which is MORE than what my gym charges you are only looking at $210,000 per gym GROSS funds coming in. You have to pay rent or a mortgage, utilities, comp fees, coaches, coaches travel and hotel, practice wear, uniforms ect out of just that amount plus pay yourself a living wage. Trust me, there isn't much left over, and multiplying it x2 doesn't help. You would have to pay that choreographer more to work with both gyms, and pay them to travel between the 2. Small gyms on a shoestring, even pooling their resources, cannot afford that kind of money. Our uniforms and practice wear would eat up $54.000 of that, comp fees about $33,000. If you employ 3 full time coaches at $10 an hour that is $62,000 before payroll taxes. So you are left with $61,000 for all other bills and your own salary. How does that buy the same resources as big gyms?

 

[Michael White]

I don't think this is at all a realistic scenario. No gym of 70 athletes has $10,000 laying around to hire choreographers. Nowhere close. I don't know of a gym of 70 that could afford to do any of what you are describing. At $3000 per athlete per year, which is MORE than what my gym charges you are only looking at $210,000 per gym GROSS funds coming in. You have to pay rent or a mortgage, utilities, comp fees, coaches, coaches travel and hotel, practice wear, uniforms ect out of just that amount plus pay yourself a living wage. Trust me, there isn't much left over, and multiplying it x2 doesn't help. You would have to pay that choreographer more to work with both gyms, and pay them to travel between the 2. Small gyms on a shoestring, even pooling their resources, cannot afford that kind of money.

As I said, I made up the amounts, but it was just to illustrate the potential benefit of multiple small locations.

 

[Michael White]

I don't think this is at all a realistic scenario. No gym of 70 athletes has $10,000 laying around to hire choreographers. Nowhere close. I don't know of a gym of 70 that could afford to do any of what you are describing. At $3000 per athlete per year, which is MORE than what my gym charges you are only looking at $210,000 per gym GROSS funds coming in. You have to pay rent or a mortgage, utilities, comp fees, coaches, coaches travel and hotel, practice wear, uniforms ect out of just that amount plus pay yourself a living wage. Trust me, there isn't much left over, and multiplying it x2 doesn't help. You would have to pay that choreographer more to work with both gyms, and pay them to travel between the 2. Small gyms on a shoestring, even pooling their resources, cannot afford that kind of money.

And, is living wage a thing at gyms? I guarantee more small gyms than you think pull in a larger profit than $10,000 every year.

 

[cheer25mom]

And, is living wage a thing at gyms? I guarantee more small gyms than you think pull in a larger profit than $10,000 every year.

see the above figures that I added. The math doesn't make sense for them to be pulling in megabucks. If you KNOW about the financials please share, but I have been involved in running a small business that is serviced based like a gym ,and they don't turn the profit you are thinking.

 

[Michael White]

see the above figures that I added. The math doesn't make sense for them to be pulling in megabucks. If you KNOW about the financials please share, but I have been involved in running a small business that is serviced based like a gym ,and they don't turn the profit you are thinking.

I'll PM you if you really want to know how I know, but I'm not going to blast any gyms in a public board.

 

[MissCongeniality]

and while we are all discussing the semantics of small gym, multiple locations etc., I pose this question: How does this ultimately benefit the athletes?

I mean should we have 3 Olympics? Because quite honestly not every country is the same size and it's not fair that Zimbabwe has to go up against the United States. I know I am using an extreme example but honestly this whole D1 D2 Summit Worlds etc. is, in my humble opinion, not about the athletes (unless the trophies for everyone is truly a winning mindset) No, it is about $ and advertising.

And yes, loopholes need to be closed. There are far too many in this sport. Again used not necessarily for the benefit of the athletes but too often for the benefit of others.

 

[MomMomMamaMom]

I don't think this is at all a realistic scenario. No gym of 70 athletes has $10,000 laying around to hire choreographers. Nowhere close. I don't know of a gym of 70 that could afford to do any of what you are describing. At $3000 per athlete per year, which is MORE than what my gym charges you are only looking at $210,000 per gym GROSS funds coming in. You have to pay rent or a mortgage, utilities, comp fees, coaches, coaches travel and hotel, practice wear, uniforms ect out of just that amount plus pay yourself a living wage. Trust me, there isn't much left over, and multiplying it x2 doesn't help. You would have to pay that choreographer more to work with both gyms, and pay them to travel between the 2. Small gyms on a shoestring, even pooling their resources, cannot afford that kind of money.

A lot of truly small gym owners do not seem to pay themselves any wage at all. And if they compete Varsity, they get a percentage back so that goes up with paid participants. But I also don't think he was saying $10000 for choreography, lol. He was saying they could pool the $ from both gyms for choreography, from what I could tell. And from what little I know, choreographers charge lower per person rates if there are higher numbers, so this could actually lower the price. Granted, they may have to stay longer, but at our small gym, the owner did the transporting.

 

[THEJOEL]

and while we are all discussing the semantics of small gym, multiple locations etc., I pose this question: How does this ultimately benefit the athletes?

I mean should we have 3 Olympics? Because quite honestly not every country is the same size and it's not fair that Zimbabwe has to go up against the United States. I know I am using an extreme example but honestly this whole D1 D2 Summit Worlds etc. is, in my humble opinion, not about the athletes (unless the trophies for everyone is truly a winning mindset) No, it is about $ and advertising.

And yes, loopholes need to be closed. There are far too many in this sport. Again used not necessarily for the benefit of the athletes but too often for the benefit of others.

D2 was for sure a money grab by Varsity and as I heard someone say the hit a homerun with It.

 

[MomMomMamaMom]

see the above figures that I added. The math doesn't make sense for them to be pulling in megabucks. If you KNOW about the financials please share, but I have been involved in running a small business that is serviced based like a gym ,and they don't turn the profit you are thinking.

Sorry to double post. But if a gym is a non profit you can actually see their tax returns online at places like
Nonprofit Explorer - ProPublica

It is kind of interesting to explore.

 

[amy1k]

and while we are all discussing the semantics of small gym, multiple locations etc., I pose this question: How does this ultimately benefit the athletes?

I mean should we have 3 Olympics? Because quite honestly not every country is the same size and it's not fair that Zimbabwe has to go up against the United States. I know I am using an extreme example but honestly this whole D1 D2 Summit Worlds etc. is, in my humble opinion, not about the athletes (unless the trophies for everyone is truly a winning mindset) No, it is about $ and advertising.

And yes, loopholes need to be closed. There are far too many in this sport. Again used not necessarily for the benefit of the athletes but too often for the benefit of others.

All of it is a money grab. Every Summit. [emoji23]

BUT, I think there's something to be said for the opportunity to compete against teams in similar circumstances. That used to happen on the local level, but with the introduction of paid Summit bids, the money grab puts smaller gyms at a disadvantage even locally. It can become frustrating when gyms with big names on their chests come in and swoop everything. And as subjective as cheer can be...it can make small programs a little paranoid, I think.

 

[Cheerhastakenovermylife]

I don't know how every gym works but I think small gyms have a hard time winning when they try to please/keep talented athletes by creating higher level teams that they don't have enough truly skilled athletes to fill. Why is there so much pressure to be a higher level athlete or team. I'd love to see Varsity or Inside Cheerleading do more honoring or articles about talented level 1, 2, & 3 teams.

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[cheer25mom]

and while we are all discussing the semantics of small gym, multiple locations etc., I pose this question: How does this ultimately benefit the athletes?

I mean should we have 3 Olympics? Because quite honestly not every country is the same size and it's not fair that Zimbabwe has to go up against the United States. I know I am using an extreme example but honestly this whole D1 D2 Summit Worlds etc. is, in my humble opinion, not about the athletes (unless the trophies for everyone is truly a winning mindset) No, it is about $ and advertising.

And yes, loopholes need to be closed. There are far too many in this sport. Again used not necessarily for the benefit of the athletes but too often for the benefit of others.

But what about even on a local level? We divide high school sports by division. It isn't fair for a high school of 400 kids to compete with a high school of 4000. I agree with you about the season ending events. We don't necessarily need 3, but I still think we need D1 and D2 separations for competitions. It isn't fair for a large gym to come in over and over and wipe the floor with tiny programs just because they can any more than it is fair on the high school level. Even travel ball has A and B teams.

 

[cheer25mom]

All of it is a money grab. Every Summit. [emoji23]

BUT, I think there's something to be said for the opportunity to compete against teams in similar circumstances. That used to happen on the local level, but with the introduction of paid Summit bids, the money grab puts smaller gyms at a disadvantage even locally. It can become frustrating when gyms with big names on their chests come in and swoop everything. And as subjective as cheer can be...it can make small programs a little paranoid, I think.

Exactly. Big gyms shouldn't be able to come in and wipe the floor with little gyms over and over. They just don't have the resources to compete. I thin limiting the number of bids given and where they are handed out would do a lot to stop it, but I don't think Varsity is willing to make less money any time soon. Hence the creation of small gym divisions.

 

[MissCongeniality]

But what about even on a local level? We divide high school sports by division. It isn't fair for a high school of 400 kids to compete with a high school of 4000. I agree with you about the season ending events. We don't necessarily need 3, but I still think we need D1 and D2 separations for competitions. It isn't fair for a large gym to come in over and over and wipe the floor with tiny programs just because they can any more than it is fair on the high school level. Even travel ball has A and B teams.

Trust me I totally get it... but why not? Devil's advocate here--- why do things have to be fair? Why does everyone have to be a "winner" in a category with like teams/programs/schools? Is that a real life lesson? I mean I think that is what is so awesome about NCAA basketball, right? We all like it when the little guys triumph over the big guys. Is the playing field fair when it comes to getting a job? I mean, I truly understand, we all want to be able to say "we won", "we are the best" etc. But ultimately in this sport... that banner is all about bringing in the bucks (even just by keeping and gaining new athletes because of that "title")

ETA: I have no issue with D2 and having been at a small gym in a town that had a big program as well... I really do get it. That said... I think $ is the real reason behind all of this... at all levels.

 

[cheer25mom]

I don't know how every gym works but I think small gyms have a hard time winning when they try to please/keep talented athletes by creating higher level teams that they don't have enough truly skilled athletes to fill. Why is there so much pressure to be a higher level athlete or team. I'd love to see Varsity or Inside Cheerleading do more honoring or articles about talented level 1, 2, & 3 teams.

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It is a balancing act. If those athletes want to compete to their potential they will go elsewhere if small gyms don't offer teams. Small gym continues to loose athletes and stagnates or loses numbers. Not good. Offering a team where everyone might not have the skill level means they cannot win and leads to the same thing. It's hard to decide where to draw the line, and hard to grow as a small gym if you don't at least attempt to offer higher level teams. Ideally you coach strong fundamental at lower levels and teach solid skills, end up at some point with once crop of talented enough athletes who are all willing to stay to make the jump with a level appropriate team the next season, but it doesn't always happen that way even when a gym is working to turn out quality athletes.