All-Star Division I And Division Ii At Worlds - Big Gym Separation

[cheernerd5678]

Anyone who thinks high school football isn't a business doesn't know Texas high school football. It is HUGE! Schools in Texas spend a good portion of their budgets on the football programs because it is a money-making business. Every 2 years the UIL, which is the governing body for high school sports in Texas performs a realignment where they verify the student enrollment numbers for every high school in Texas. Our high school's goal was to drop down from 5A Division 2 to 4A Division 1. If a student did not reside in the school zone was transferred back to the school they were zoned to. Even if a student had an official transfer but had failing grades, tardiness, high absenteeism, they were also transferred out. This strategy paid off since we won the state championship in the smaller division. The larger high schools have been accused and found guilty of recruiting football players by offering parents jobs, free rent, etc. You won't convince a Texan that high school football isn't a business.

But is that what we want it to become? "No you can't cheer because we're trying to be D2 so we can't take you."

 

[CGAcheer]

It is hard to come up with a solution for where to split the gyms, so why stop at 2 "small senior" divisions? Why not simply have D1 be gyms with 1000+, D2 = 900-999, D3 = 800-899, . . . D11 = 50-99, D12 = 10-49. Why stop at only 2 divisions by size? If the logic that more divisions helps more gyms grow, then 12 teams walking away as Small Senior World Champions would just mean 12 times as many happy kids.

My belief is that like most small businesses, many small gyms struggle to stay open more because of lack of knowledge / resources for how to run their business than because they aren't winning Worlds or don't know how to spot a full. I know that it isn't as fun to talk about, but I wish we could spend this much debate time coming up with ways to help small gym owners manage their money, increase their revenue streams, and stay in business.

Having more Worlds banners hanging in more gyms around the country may or may not help overall enrollment in all star (I happen to think it wouldn't - but we evil mega-gym owners aren't allowed to have an opinion), but that effect would be minor compared to USASF offering comprehensive business and customer service knowledge to all gyms. I get that tweaking tumbling rules, age brackets, divisions, and the length of uniform tops is something they are more comfortable focusing on, but if their goal REALLY was to help the small business owners and grow the sport, there are much more efficient and effective uses of their time and resources.

have you thought about getting with Lark at My Cheer Connection to do some cheer business related webinars?

 

[gymcatmomx2]

But is that what we want it to become? "No you can't cheer because we're trying to be D2 so we can't take you."

I think the intent of my post was missed. I was responding to the analogy that you can't compare high school football to all-star cheer because one is not run like a business and has no control over what division they compete in, which is not the case in Texas. I think that having a Division 1 and a Division 2 at worlds is an excellent idea. After a few years, the teams/gyms that win Division 2 worlds rings will be just as proud and accomplished as the Division 1 teams/gyms. Think what this industry would look like if every small gym closed their doors because they continue to lose talented athletes to the bigger gyms. I am looking forward several years and hoping that I can watch my grandchildren compete in all-star cheer. We need to keep things in perspective and prepare for what what we want this industry to look like in the next 15-20 years; not just over the next 2-3.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

It is hard to come up with a solution for where to split the gyms, so why stop at 2 "small senior" divisions? Why not simply have D1 be gyms with 1000+, D2 = 900-999, D3 = 800-899, . . . D11 = 50-99, D12 = 10-49. Why stop at only 2 divisions by size? If the logic that more divisions helps more gyms grow, then 12 teams walking away as Small Senior World Champions would just mean 12 times as many happy kids.

My belief is that like most small businesses, many small gyms struggle to stay open more because of lack of knowledge / resources for how to run their business than because they aren't winning Worlds or don't know how to spot a full. I know that it isn't as fun to talk about, but I wish we could spend this much debate time coming up with ways to help small gym owners manage their money, increase their revenue streams, and stay in business.

Having more Worlds banners hanging in more gyms around the country may or may not help overall enrollment in all star (I happen to think it wouldn't - but we evil mega-gym owners aren't allowed to have an opinion), but that effect would be minor compared to USASF offering comprehensive business and customer service knowledge to all gyms. I get that tweaking tumbling rules, age brackets, divisions, and the length of uniform tops is something they are more comfortable focusing on, but if their goal REALLY was to help the small business owners and grow the sport, there are much more efficient and effective uses of their time and resources.

I'm sure you didn't intend this to be as offensive to the 'other' gyms as I read it to be. But the implication here is that it is largely the gym owners' and coaches' fault that their programs aren't able to gather 1000 athletes and I find that to be unfairly presumed.

The southern states had a 10 or 20 year lead on the Midwest and Northern states. You have babies birthed tumbling and parents killing people to make a cheer team. They are getting their kids involved as soon as they can walk. I'd also bet that significantly more people in Texas, Georgia and the Carolinas know what allstar cheerleading is than do in Illinois, Oregon, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, NY, etc. I'd suggest that if you compare these small-to-midsize gyms in their current state to the 'mega gyms' from 10-15 years ago they probably would be quite similar.

Many good coaches jump ship to go to the large gyms too, as soon as they prove themselves. It's not just cheerleaders.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

Anyone who thinks high school football isn't a business doesn't know Texas high school football. It is HUGE! Schools in Texas spend a good portion of their budgets on the football programs because it is a money-making business. Every 2 years the UIL, which is the governing body for high school sports in Texas performs a realignment where they verify the student enrollment numbers for every high school in Texas. Our high school's goal was to drop down from 5A Division 2 to 4A Division 1. If a student did not reside in the school zone was transferred back to the school they were zoned to. Even if a student had an official transfer but had failing grades, tardiness, high absenteeism, they were also transferred out. This strategy paid off since we won the state championship in the smaller division. The larger high schools have been accused and found guilty of recruiting football players by offering parents jobs, free rent, etc. You won't convince a Texan that high school football isn't a business.

I think the intent of my post was missed. I was responding to the analogy that you can't compare high school football to all-star cheer because one is not run like a business and has no control over what division they compete in, which is not the case in Texas. I think that having a Division 1 and a Division 2 at worlds is an excellent idea. After a few years, the teams/gyms that win Division 2 worlds rings will be just as proud and accomplished as the Division 1 teams/gyms. Think what this industry would look like if every small gym closed their doors because they continue to lose talented athletes to the bigger gyms. I am looking forward several years and hoping that I can watch my grandchildren compete in all-star cheer. We need to keep things in perspective and prepare for what what we want this industry to look like in the next 15-20 years; not just over the next 2-3.

No the intent of MY post was missed. I didn't say high school football wasn't a business - I didn't come close to saying that actually. But there is a world of difference between high school sports and club sports and I just want people to stop acting like they are the same thing because they ARE NOT. Being motivated by money is not the same thing as free will of customers.

Yes, high school football is a money maker. Yes, there is recruiting. No, every kid who thinks they're good enough can't just change schools and play wherever they want. (And for the record there are actually 49 other states that participate in cheer that are NOT Texas - I know that's hard to believe but it's true. So just because something is true in texas high school sports doesn't mean we should automatically assume it would apply to all star cheer). I know PLENTY of kids who have tried to change schools to play ball - but no school wanted to lie for them because they just aren't as great as they think they are. In cheer you don't need to move, change schools, get around transfer waiting periods; you just go down the street and write a check. It's capitalism at its finest.

I am just not seeing how this would prevent kids from leaving to go to big, D1 gyms. In high school yes there is shady behind the scenes recruiting and such but really...Joe Schmoe cannot just DECIDE he's too good for his high school and transfer - the high school would have to want him bad enough. That is no way, no how the same thing as Susie and her mom leaving to go to mega gym in hopes of being on a D1 team. The majority of people on a D2 high school team would jump at the first opportunity to leave and go to a D1 school, but they can't because they're the same skill level as everyone else. So they have to stay and play in the school zone they live in. In cheer (completely optional, no zoning laws in the way) anyone can still go wherever they want to cheer - and trust me they will.

ETA not sure if this makes sense or not?

The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[FamousxMindset]

Everybody can't win worlds.Everybody can't win worlds.Everybody can't win worlds.

With this proposal the athletes who will gain skills that will end up leaving the small gym will still leave for the bigger gym. A D2 World Champion would be looked at as a mercy win in our industry. The desire to be a D1 champion will create even more gym hoppers because we are admitting that gym A isn't as good as gym B.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[tumbleyoda]

Everybody can't win worlds.Everybody can't win worlds.Everybody can't win worlds.

With this proposal the athletes who will gain skills that will end up leaving the small gym will still leave for the bigger gym. A D2 World Champion would be looked at as a mercy win in our industry. The desire to be a D1 champion will create even more gym hoppers because we are admitting that gym A isn't as good as gym B.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

Extreme sarcasm alert!!!

Well small gyms are pretty much told to go and hide somewhere at a janktastic competition then blamed for only going to janky competitions; to close down and send all our kids to mega gyms so their teams can be so good or be a feeder gym and think if we just let the 5's go with out fighting it, the 4's, 3's, and 2's won't go (yea right try that one yourself), "it is our fault that there are tumbling restrictions because we can't teach/spot anything more than a tuck or layout; our kids "suck" when at our gyms but are amazing doing the same exact skills at larger/more well known gyms; it is our fault we can't afford to scholarship 1/4 to a 1/1 Level 5 team to be competitive against the larger gyms and it is our fault when we say we don't want to compete in that toxic environment either.

Serious now:

I think there is a split whether we want to admit it, agree with it or not. Yes you can poke a hole in almost every analogy either pro D1/D2 or con, but it does not change the fact that there is a split in this industry. Since small gym owners/coaches typically do not go to USASF meetings because the owners/coaches can't afford to get off work/other jobs, are rarely asked their opinion except in a thread like this and then get slammed for their opinions, I sincerely doubt one small gym approached USASF and ASKED FOR THIS CHANGE for Worlds. So the question to ask at the USASF meetings of the USASF is why do you feel like you need to make this change?

Remember Les asked about our thoughts on the Worlds angle which is why I commented on that. That aside, I stand by my original thought expressed for many years. D1 and D2. D1 is Worlds, period. Want to go to Worlds - go D1. Not just your level 5 team but your whole program. Yes that messes up those gyms that stack their level 5's and don't really do the same with their lower level teams. D2 goes to Summit, or a true National Championship event. IMO the reason USASF/Varsity would not of seen this as possible in the past because they want to keep the level 5 market locked down chasing after Worlds. The chase makes $$$$. Now that Varsity has created Summit they can do what they stopped/blocked Jamfest from doing this same thing years ago when Jamfest bought Final Destination and rebranded it as US Finals. . Giving those level 5 programs that are trying to build up to be competitive yet are not at the level of a CEA, ACE, Brandon, CA, Cali, F5 or whomever, the chance to keep working at it. And have some end goal in mind, even if it isn't Worlds.

For the record I personally don't need or care about Worlds. It is no attack to my ego if I don't coach a Worlds team. Contrary to the opinion of some on this board it does not mean I "suck" as a coach. I go, if I go because the athletes that I have coached want to go and if they have earned that right both in the gym and in competition. I go to support them, win or lose, hit or miss, one and done or finals. That goal/dream was not sold to them by me our coaches, or the owners but by the industry. We did not sell them on Worlds, the chase for Worlds, on being a World champion etc. - the industry kept pushing it before them. Why? because it was in their best business interest to do so! My best business interest is getting 250 athletes in my tumbling classes each week and 12 school teams a week. Cause that one pays me way better than going to Worlds ever will.

 

[BlueCat]

I'm sure you didn't intend this to be as offensive to the 'other' gyms as I read it to be. But the implication here is that it is largely the gym owners' and coaches' fault that their programs aren't able to gather 1000 athletes and I find that to be unfairly presumed.

The southern states had a 10 or 20 year lead on the Midwest and Northern states. You have babies birthed tumbling and parents killing people to make a cheer team. They are getting their kids involved as soon as they can walk. I'd also bet that significantly more people in Texas, Georgia and the Carolinas know what allstar cheerleading is than do in Illinois, Oregon, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, NY, etc. I'd suggest that if you compare these small-to-midsize gyms in their current state to the 'mega gyms' from 10-15 years ago they probably would be quite similar.

Many good coaches jump ship to go to the large gyms too, as soon as they prove themselves. It's not just cheerleaders.

I wasn't my intent to put anyone down. I didn't say anyone was less intelligent or capable than anyone else. Like nearly every small business owner, the difficult part of staying open is typically NOT a lack of ability in their service business' focus (cheerleading, gymnastics, hair styling, etc.), it is the pure business side of it. Managing cash flow, payroll, taxes, debt, etc. are not skills that many people simply have naturally. I have seen many gyms go out of business who had strong, creative coaches at their helm in large part because they weren't also experienced at the other stuff.

If the point was to keep more gyms in business and increase total enrollment in all star, it is my opinion that helping gym owners with this side of things is more important than hanging a few more banners around the country. (or worrying about crop tops, standing doubles, etc.) If USASF's purpose is to help the all star industry thrive and grow, I believe that providing useful, but admittedly more boring day-to-day business help would go dramatically further than adding divisions at Worlds. Providing sample release forms, business plans, editable athlete handbooks, free enrollment software, advice on setting up merchant accounts, providing a free collections service . . . these would serve much more actual purpose than trying to arrange a system where the "top 2%" teams can be competitive with the "top 1%" teams. While those teams get a lion's share of the attention here and elsewhere, those are NOT the heart of the all star industry and should NOT be USASF's main focus.

Is it arrogant for me to assume that SOME (not all, maybe not even most) of the smaller gym owners are better at coaching cheer than designing a workable business plan? Is that an offensive opinion to have? I don't think so, but maybe that is just arrogance getting in the way.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

I wasn't my intent to put anyone down. I didn't say anyone was less intelligent or capable than anyone else. Like nearly every small business owner, the difficult part of staying open is typically NOT a lack of ability in their service business' focus (cheerleading, gymnastics, hair styling, etc.), it is the pure business side of it. Managing cash flow, payroll, taxes, debt, etc. are not skills that many people simply have naturally. I have seen many gyms go out of business who had strong, creative coaches at their helm in large part because they weren't also experienced at the other stuff.

If the point was to keep more gyms in business and increase total enrollment in all star, it is my opinion that helping gym owners with this side of things is more important than hanging a few more banners around the country. (or worrying about crop tops, standing doubles, etc.) If USASF's purpose is to help the all star industry thrive and grow, I believe that providing useful, but admittedly more boring day-to-day business help would go dramatically further than adding divisions at Worlds. Providing sample release forms, business plans, editable athlete handbooks, free enrollment software, advice on setting up merchant accounts, providing a free collections service . . . these would serve much more actual purpose than trying to arrange a system where the "top 2%" teams can be competitive with the "top 1%" teams. While those teams get a lion's share of the attention here and elsewhere, those are NOT the heart of the all star industry and should NOT be USASF's main focus.

Is it arrogant for me to assume that SOME (not all, maybe not even most) of the smaller gym owners are better at coaching cheer than designing a workable business plan? Is that an offensive opinion to have? I don't think so, but maybe that is just arrogance getting in the way.

I completely agree that any one of these things would be helpful in helping a business become established and remain solvent. But I can't help but feel that out of the other 990 gyms that aren't in the 'Big Ten' there probably are more than a few good business managers doing all (or most) of these things right today.

I am struggling to put into words why I feel so strongly that this alone will not be enough. No one thing will. The best way I can explain it is to use my experiences living here in the Dallas area for two years after living in the burbs of Chicago to create a hypothetical situation;

Say I am in a salon in Gurnee getting my nails done and the chatter turns to the topic of allstar cheerleading. If I thump my chest and say "My daughter has won two National Championships this year with XXX Alstars", odds are the mommy next to me is visualizing her precious one in a cute outfit, shaking her poms and lofting a big trophy. Her response is "where do I sign up?"

Fast forward and now I am in Plano. I'm at the salon and we're all getting our roots bleached (tongue-in-cheek TX humor). The subject comes up and I thump my chest and say "My daughter has won two National Championships this year with XXX Alstars". The next thing you see is me running down the street with my gown on and foils still in, having been laughed out of the place.

People here KNOW cheerleading. They recognize the difference between a good gym and a pretender. In those states where this has not been a way of life for 20 years, we have a hard time getting people to take this seriously. So we have 20 gyms within 1/2-1 hour of each other, all trying to make a buck and all trying to hang onto their gym by pretending to be competitive. And they are fooling just enough people to keep that alive. The pool is diluted way too much. And then, when you do manage to have a successful team (top ten or so), the next thing you know Mom and Dad have shipped the talent off to a 'winning' gym somewhere else.

It's a catch-22. You can't grow until you have something in hand that keeps your talent home. And you can't do that until you have a large enough base to build a consistently successful team. Do I think that two Divisions is the best answer? No. But it's better than continuing the path we are on.

I think the growing number of virtual jobs is also affecting this. 15 years ago Dad and Mom wouldn't quit their job and move to take Suzie to Texas. Now you just change houses. When my job went virtual I offered to move with my daughter to North Carolina. She said "no way, I love my team and I'm staying". But I bet she is in the minority there.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Extreme sarcasm alert!!!

For the record I personally don't need or care about Worlds. It is no attack to my ego if I don't coach a Worlds team. Contrary to the opinion of some on this board it does not mean I "suck" as a coach. I go, if I go because the athletes that I have coached want to go and if they have earned that right both in the gym and in competition. I go to support them, win or lose, hit or miss, one and done or finals. That goal/dream was not sold to them by me our coaches, or the owners but by the industry. We did not sell them on Worlds, the chase for Worlds, on being a World champion etc. - the industry kept pushing it before them. Why? because it was in their best business interest to do so! My best business interest is getting 250 athletes in my tumbling classes each week and 12 school teams a week. Cause that one pays me way better than going to Worlds ever will.

I love this. I always find it so, so egotistical when people claim that only a Worlds win matters. I would whole-heartedly disagree with that. In the 20 years we've been hanging around I have seen hundreds of teams at all levels win from mom-and-pop competitions to Jamfest, NCA, UCA, Cheersport, etc. that were much more visibly thrilled by their win than any team I ever saw at Worlds. And I think there would be D2 teams just as excited about winning at their level as they would be at Worlds.

Nobody has the right to imply to any cheerleader or coach or gym that their win is meaningless, just because it doesn't happen to meet their personal standard for success. That's cruel and pointless and it certainly doesn't serve this industry well. Would we infer from this that Jamfest and NCA and Cheersport should also slink away into oblivion since they aren't Worlds either?

 

[sportygal2012]

I have read every post and while I can agree with a lot of the shared opinions I don't understand the ones that are opposed to it. My CP's high school won the Texas State 4A Division 1 football championship with approximately 2100 students. Another high school in Texas won the 5a Division 1 championship with approximately 6000 students. Did the fact that we were not in the largest division take away from our winning the state championship? Heck no! Could we realistically compete with a school that has 3x the amount of students? Heck no! And by the way, our girls soccer team took home a state championship as well, in the same division. And frankly, I have no idea who won it for the 5A division because I couldn't care less. We won state in our respective division - that's all that matters!

I agree with you 100 %, on a total unrelated note... A-UP!


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[taytay]

Then you make the small gyms seem like not real world champion contenders. Like Major vs minor league baseball. It is very likely that a small gym could conceivably beat out a large gym in many divisions and lets not underestimate the small gyms out there by not allowing them to compete with everyone. A champion should be a true champion! (examples: Flyers All Stars(canada), Stealth All Stars, South Elite Diamonds, Pacific Coast Magic, etc...) Plus the better a gym gets, the harder it is for them to stay small. People will be impressed by what they can do and want to be a part of their family, which was the case for many of these great gyms.

 

[Deleted member 28787]

The only thing I can say is that we need to find another way to stop athletes from leaving small gyms and clustering at big gyms... But this isn't the way to do it.


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[HotmEssJeSS]

Supposed to be...but not all are (but that's another discussion all together). Ok so I was using football because that's what @rulesguy used. Go back to the Olympics comparison then. My opinion... Being a "World Champion" should mean you beat the other teams/competitors doing the same thing in the World, whether you are a skier from Haiti or Austria. The Olympics doesn't create special divisions because some countries don't have snow or have only 1 swimming pool in their entire country. You work with what you have for your chance to compete against the best so that you can call yourself a World Champion. Maybe Worlds should get a new name so it is not so confusing to those outside the sport who are going to have trouble not throwing this into the "how many nationals do you have" discussion. This sport already has a bazillion "national champions" running around every year so why not a couple dozen World Champions?

Again, I see pros and cons. I totally understand the struggle of the small gym versus mega gym... I just don't think "Worlds" (the industry's supposed pinnacle) is the place to be splitting divisions.

im just saying peoplE think this isnt "fair" or they just dont like the idea of splitting divisions but there are already so many things that are unfair and will continue to be unfair...that's aclled life. for example how top 3 from each country moves on in international divisions while you have teams moving on that barely score 100 and then you have a team that placed 4th in semi finals and just because they lost by that .05 point they dont deserve and chance to become a world champion.. it stinks and its unfair but thats the rules. also you guys are all talking about how "worlds" is like the superbowl and the olympics when youre not even discussing the international teams at all. all i see on here is about sm med and lrg teams and they dont compete against anyone outside of the US(and forgive me if im wrong about not discussing international teams but i dont see it anywhere.) and this wasnt directed at any one personally just simply something ive noticed while reading this thread

 

[Boo21]

This is just nonsense and I can't even wrap my head around why the USASF would even consider it. Right now good or bad Worlds is the Olympics of cheerleading and there are not multiple or split divisions at the olympics. You give everything you have and pray that it's enough. But obviously only one team per division can win. Now that's not good enough you have to try and cheapen the win? And yes if you gave the exact same rings and medals to division 2 as division 1 it totally cheapens the win. Not everyone can be the best. Come on people wake up!! Even college football has only one champion regardless of how many divisions they might have let's leave world's alone.