All-Star Double Full... Help!

[cheer25mom]

I'll listen to your word on the RO and RO BHS, but my rebound is easily three feet or more off the ground. I have the highest rebound in the gym. If I'm doing it incorrectly, than that's great, I'll only get better.

It's isn't all about the height of the rebound though... There is much more involved in having it set you properly for the next skill, particularly when you start trying for those elite worlds level passes. Do you have a credentialed tumbling instructor who is experienced in teaching level 5 skills working with you? I think it would be to your benefit to find someone to work with, even if it's on a limited basis, or via video. They will be better able to observe your skills long term and provide better feedback that us armchair coaches on the Internet.


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[Michael White]

I understand. Your tumbling is good! Don't miss us saying that. Just some minor corrections that is all. I never had any equipment until I started taking gymnastics at 14. By that time I had already learned BHS, Tucks and Arabians on my own. I know the frustration of not having equipment and the wonder and joy of finally having something soft and safe to land on instead of concrete or grass...lol.

If you have a large wedge, you can put a landing mat on that and do the same drill going up the wedge. That is my preferred drill over doing it in the pit, but it is a spot station for me to keep kids from unintentionally throwing their heads back and jamming their neck into the mats.

Patience is the key to fixing it. Here is a self test. Stand straight and hold your hands above your head. Have someone mark where your reach ends. Now step away and look at it. That is where your head should ideally be when you are inverted in a salto regardless if it is tuck, pike, layout, full, double full. The absolute lowest I would allow an athlete to spin would be at head height, if it was consistent. If I have an athlete that is lower than their head height on a layout, they will not spin with my permission. (Watch some videos even of worlds and see how many spins are lower than head height and watch the landings) Typically those athletes that try to get around that clause with me and our gym and go to other gyms are the ones that end up with jacked up ankles or knees because they didn't want to fix what needed to be fixed so that they could be safe.

Thanks for all of the tips and drills, i'll work on it. unfortunately I don't even have access to a wedge. I am certain that my tuck and layout Inver that high, but the full/double full are lower.

 

[Michael White]

It's isn't all about the height of the rebound though... There is much more involved in having it set you properly for the next skill, particularly when you start trying for those elite worlds level passes. Do you have a credentialed tumbling instructor who is experienced in teaching level 5 skills working with you? I think it would be to your benefit to find someone to work with, even if it's on a limited basis, or via video. They will be better able to observe your skills long term and provide better feedback that us armchair coaches on the Internet.


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I'm a level 4 tumbling instructor, not credentialed, but two years experience. I wish I had a level 5 instructor to work with, but I live in Maine.

 

[cheer25mom]

I'm a level 4 tumbling instructor, not credentialed, but two years experience. I wish I had a level 5 instructor to work with, but I live in Maine.

I encourage you to start the credentialing process ASAP. I don't allow my child to work with instructors who are not properly credentialed for the level they are teaching, period. I feel that strongly about the necessity of proper credentialing and safety training. It makes a huge difference in the quality of the instruction provided, because you are taught proper progression, and how to properly break down and teach the skills. The little things being pointed out here are all part of that education process. The training will likely give you a lot of insight into your own tumbling as well.


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[Michael White]

I encourage you to start the credentialing process ASAP. I don't allow my child to work with instructors who are not properly credentialed for the level they are teaching, period. I feel that strongly about the necessity of proper credentialing and safety training. It makes a huge difference in the quality of the instruction provided, because you are taught proper progression, and how to properly break down and teach the skills. The little things being pointed out here are all part of that education process. The training will likely give you a lot of insight into your own tumbling as well.


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I don't teach incorrectly just because I'm not credentialed. I believe in drills as much as everyone else, and sometimes in the cheer world, technique is overlooked. I often wade through bad technique up to my neck and do the best I can to improve athletes safely and effectively. I learned my tumbling almost on my own, before I was an instructor, and the faults in that learning are still seen even today. I simply don't have the money to spend $125 per level to get credentialed, and I'd have to drive to Boston to do it.

 

[cheer25mom]

I don't teach incorrectly just because I'm not credentialed. I believe in drills as much as everyone else, and sometimes in the cheer world, technique is overlooked. I often wade through bad technique up to my neck and do the best I can to improve athletes safely and effectively. I learned my tumbling almost on my own, before I was an instructor, and the faults in that learning are still seen even today. I simply don't have the money to spend $125 per level to get credentialed, and I'd have to drive to Boston to do it.

I didn't say you taught incorrectly. I cannot possibly know that, but you attitude about credentialing and the fact that you haven't worked with credentialed instructors would be red flags for me. The fact that you are self taught, IMO, makes credentialing that much more important. I don't think you realize what it will do for the quality of your instruction simply because you haven't been exposed to it. You admit that there are faults in your self taught tumbling. You have to acknowledge the possibility that you are passing that on to your students, because you haven't been taught the correct way to teach it.

Based on what I have seen in our gym over the years, the credentialing process produces better tumbling instructors. I have watched young people grow as coaches through the learning and mentoring process. It isn't just paying $125 a level. You are required to pass tests about proper technique and how to teach it, spend extensive time working under a credentialed coach,and pass a hands on exam. Done right, it produces instructors who are competent to safely teach. I think it's a bit arrogant to think that it would have no benefit.


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[tumbleyoda]

@Michael White - I don't know about your plans or availability for the summer, but I will be staying pretty close to the gym all Summer due to remodeling. If you are able to swing a trip to St Louis, you can shadow me a couple of days at the gym, take notes, show you some drills you can use with the equipment you have at your gym and ask questions. Willing to help you out if I can. Again, I been there, so I get it.

 

[Michael White]

I didn't say you taught incorrectly. I cannot possibly know that, but you attitude about credentialing and the fact that you haven't worked with credentialed instructors would be red flags for me. The fact that you are self taught, IMO, makes credentialing that much more important. I don't think you realize what it will do for the quality of your instruction simply because you haven't been exposed to it. You admit that there are faults in your self taught tumbling. You have to acknowledge the possibility that you are passing that on to your students, because you haven't been taught the correct way to teach it.

Based on what I have seen in our gym over the years, the credentialing process produces better tumbling instructors. I have watched young people grow as coaches through the learning and mentoring process. It isn't just paying $125 a level. You are required to pass tests about proper technique and how to teach it, spend extensive time working under a credentialed coach,and pass a hands on exam. Done right, it produces instructors who are competent to safely teach. I think it's a bit arrogant to think that it would have no benefit.


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You literally said earlier in this post that you weren't an instructor, nor had you ever thrown the skills, but you had no problems telling me what I needed to do better. As far as tumbling goes, I wish I had had myself as an instructor when I was learning, but I'm not passing the problems in my tumbling on to my students...

I don't know why you think I'm a bad instructor, but my athletes have enjoyed tremendous success under my teaching. I've had people without even a handspring now throwing two to layouts and combos to layout. I also spot two high schools for tumbling as well, because they requested me. I've never had a complaint from a parent. I have no idea about Element All Star, Diamond, or Maine Elite, but I don't know of another credentialed instructor in the entire state. For the amount that I am paid, I can't justify getting credentialed, my gym will not foot the bill, nor can I even dream to. Does that make me a horrible instructor? I really hope not.

 

[Michael White]

@Michael White - I don't know about your plans or availability for the summer, but I will be staying pretty close to the gym all Summer due to remodeling. If you are able to swing a trip to St Louis, you can shadow me a couple of days at the gym, take notes, show you some drills you can use with the equipment you have at your gym and ask questions. Willing to help you out if I can. Again, I been there, so I get it.

If it's a possibility, I'd really appreciate it. The only equipment we have is a 4'x6'x4" squish mat, a small octagon, a largish Boulder, and a tumble track with a pad.

 

[cheer25mom]

You literally said earlier in this post that you weren't an instructor, nor had you ever thrown the skills, but you had no problems telling me what I needed to do better. As far as tumbling goes, I wish I had had myself as an instructor when I was learning, but I'm not passing the problems in my tumbling on to my students...

I don't know why you think I'm a bad instructor, but my athletes have enjoyed tremendous success under my teaching. I've had people without even a handspring now throwing two to layouts and combos to layout. I also spot two high schools for tumbling as well, because they requested me. I've never had a complaint from a parent. I have no idea about Element All Star, Diamond, or Maine Elite, but I don't know of another credentialed instructor in the entire state. For the amount that I am paid, I can't justify getting credentialed, my gym will not foot the bill, nor can I even dream to. Does that make me a horrible instructor? I really hope not.

You are getting way too defensive here. AGAIN, no one is calling you a horrible instructor. You are using those words because you are being defensive and reactionary.

No, I am NOT an instructor. I am a parent who has chosen to educate themselves on the product I am purchasing. I read extensively. I consult with experienced, credentialed coaches. My child's safety and well being in this sport is #1, so it is my job as her parent to be an educated consumer.

No reputable gym in my area employs non credentialed coaches, and I am not aware of any major player in this industry willing to do so. Most gyms ask for credentialing plus years of training before turning over a higher level tumbling class to a coach.

All I am trying to say here, and what you don't want to hear, is that while you are clearly a very talented tumbler and it is amazing that you have gotten this far on your own you don't know everything. The discussion here has made it clear that you aren't aware of done of the issues in your own tumbling. If you aren't aware the issues even exist, I don't see how you can correct them in anyone else.

You CLEARLY care about this sport and the kids you coach and want to do the best you can for them. Credentialing and experience can only help that.



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[Michael White]

You are getting way too defensive here. AGAIN, no one is calling you a horrible instructor. You are using those words because you are being defensive and reactionary.

No, I am NOT an instructor. I am a parent who has chosen to educate themselves on the product I am purchasing. I read extensively. I consult with experienced, credentialed coaches. My child's safety and well being in this sport is #1, so it is my job as her parent to be an educated consumer.

No reputable gym in my area employs non credentialed coaches, and I am not aware of any major player in this industry willing to do so. Most gyms ask for credentialing plus years of training before turning over a higher level tumbling class to a coach.

All I am trying to say here, and what you don't want to hear, is that while you are clearly a very talented tumbler and it is amazing that you have gotten this far on your own you don't know everything. The discussion here has made it clear that you aren't aware of done of the issues in your own tumbling. If you aren't aware the issues even exist, I don't see how you can correct them in anyone else.

You CLEARLY care about this sport and the kids you coach and want to do the best you can for them. Credentialing and experience can only help that.



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I do tend to get defensive, b lame it on people never believing in my skills or abilities. ;) How do you suggest I get credentialed? I don't teach incorrectly. I'll admit my experience with level 5 is very minimal, but I do believe I could pass 1-4 credentialing today if I went through the process. I too watched an inordinate amount of YouTube videos on how to spot, correct technique, etc. I also took the online written credentialing that you need to do before a hands on test. I got 10 out of 10 on 1-4 the first time attempting it (I also think 10 questions is not enough when a child's well-being is in your hands.) What do you suggest I do next?

 

[cheer25mom]

I do tend to get defensive, b lame it on people never believing in my skills or abilities. ;) How do you suggest I get credentialed? I don't teach incorrectly. I'll admit my experience with level 5 is very minimal, but I do believe I could pass 1-4 credentialing today if I went through the process. I too watched an inordinate amount of YouTube videos on how to spot, correct technique, etc. I also took the online written credentialing that you need to do before a hands on test. I got 10 out of 10 on 1-4 the first time attempting it (I also think 10 questions is not enough when a child's well-being is in your hands.) What do you suggest I do next?

Taking @tumbleyoda up on his offer would be a great first step. Sounds like what you need is the practical experience end of things. See if you can find someone willing to mentor you to let you get your supervised coaching hours in. Even if it's a few hours at a time. You are going to have yo work for it, but you can get there! I have watched it take a committed kid who was doing the best with the knowledge they had to an AMAZING coach and mentor to athletes.


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[Michael White]

Taking @tumbleyoda up on his offer would be a great first step. Sounds like what you need is the practical experience end of things. See if you can find someone willing to mentor you to let you get your supervised coaching hours in. Even if it's a few hours at a time. You are going to have yo work for it, but you can get there! I have watched it take a committed kid who was doing the best with the knowledge they had to an AMAZING coach and mentor to athletes.


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Even taking the offer is going to cost a lot to me after travel/hotel. The instructor I trained under is not credentialed either. I'd have to drive upward of a hundred miles to find a credentialed instructor, I'm sure of it. I'm sure you don't mean it at all, but the way you word it makes it sound like I have no experience, and have no idea what I'm doing. I have been spotting tumbling levels 1-4 for 2 years, going on 3, just a reminder. :) I know I'm not perfect, but I do think I'm doing the best I can with a large number of athletes who trust me 100%.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I feel like mentoring is the best possible way to round out abilities as a coach. At my age, with retirement looming, I am more concerned about teaching other teachers that can go out and teach others the correct ways. There are so many things that I could never put on a website for sale or blog about that are crucial in teaching tumbling technique, motivation, dealing with mental blocks etc. Some are new off the head and others are old memories and drills that come up in certain situations. This is why having a mentor is great because they can share these things because they want to see you succeed and go father than they ever did.

It is admittedly a pet peeve of mine that when it comes to tumbling most people just want the trick. Not the process or understanding how it all works and why. That is what IMO makes you a solid instructor. Anyone can teach a kid who has insane talent walking in the door. But to take that kid that has no immediate strengths or abilities and teach them to become a pretty good tumbler, especially when others won't work with them because they are not talented - that is the type of tumbling coach you want to be. To take a nugget and make them first or last pass. To see the coaches that didn't want to work with them when they started, now beg to work with them. To see that kid that no one believed in taking the floor confidant knowing that it was not just the skills that you taught them but the mental capacity to overcome their weakness and make it a strength....that is priceless.

 

[Michael White]

I feel like mentoring is the best possible way to round out abilities as a coach. At my age, with retirement looming, I am more concerned about teaching other teachers that can go out and teach others the correct ways. There are so many things that I could never put on a website for sale or blog about that are crucial in teaching tumbling technique, motivation, dealing with mental blocks etc. Some are new off the head and others are old memories and drills that come up in certain situations. This is why having a mentor is great because they can share these things because they want to see you succeed and go father than they ever did.

It is admittedly a pet peeve of mine that when it comes to tumbling most people just want the trick. Not the process or understanding how it all works and why. That is what IMO makes you a solid instructor. Anyone can teach a kid who has insane talent walking in the door. But to take that kid that has no immediate strengths or abilities and teach them to become a pretty good tumbler, especially when others won't work with them because they are not talented - that is the type of tumbling coach you want to be. To take a nugget and make them first or last pass. To see the coaches that didn't want to work with them when they started, now beg to work with them. To see that kid that no one believed in taking the floor confidant knowing that it was not just the skills that you taught them but the mental capacity to overcome their weakness and make it a strength....that is priceless.

Exactly, I had an athlete who bounced around for a while and finally settled with me. No one thought she'd be anything, and now she's starting to throw her layout, has a strong two to tuck, strong front walkover through to tuck, and is so close to her standing tuck. That's what it's all about, seeing an athlete no one thought could do it, and seeing her throw the second to last pass lass year.