High School Falling Out Of Lib

[tjbettin]

One of my flyers keeps STEPPING out of her lib when she's in the air, forcing her to fall forward and land directly on the mat on her foot. I'm worried about a potential ankle injury. How do I teach a flyer not to do that.


PS: the bases are able to get the lib up there and hold it. It only falls when the flyer steps out.

 

[haybale]

I usually have mine that tend to do that practice holding up the lib leg at the knee. It seems to help some with balance and getting used to keeping that leg up

 

[ScottyB]

Flyer should have: Eyes up, both hips pulling up (not just one), shoulders rolled back and shrugged up.

If she is coming forward out of it, she probably isn't falling and she is most likely stepping out of it. Make sure you as the bases are continually shrugging up and pressing to the ceiling so she feels comfortable enough to stay standing up there.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

I feel like I have the opposite problem where my flyers just step back.. they are up and seriously solid and then it's like, OK Im done...

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

I think it's very important to flyers to be told that when they attempt to dismount themselves, in any manner, from any stunt, that they are putting themselves at risk. A lot of encouragement to hold their body position is often helpful.

Most importantly:

Never, ever, ever, ever, ever forget the value of bracing any stunt of which the flyer appears to be afraid. Whether it's two-footed, one-footed, straight up, half up, full up, 1 1/2 up....all of those skills can be performed with one or more prep-level skills standing around to brace them and help keep them up. Being successful with strong body positions a few times with a bracer, can dramatically impact the performance of the top when she's free-standing.

In one-footed skills particularly, there is a degree of core strength required the some coaches forget about. This is more prevalent in heel stretches than liberties, but exists in all one-legged skills. If she is consistently getting to the top of the skill, locked out, solid, and then suddenly her leg starts to drift downward and she's stepping out of it, she may not have the core strength required to hold that leg, in that body position, for that determined amount of time.

My suggestion would be to attempt the skill to counts with a predetermined dismount count. That way the girl hits the skill on "five" and she knows she just needs to be mentally tough enough to fight the fatigue in her core and hold the lib position until 1, when her bases will begin the dismount process without her having to think about it.

When learning a new skill, often we get wrapped up in "oh we did it!" then we have no idea how we are going to come down, that uncertainty can heighten fear.

Then you also have to be aware of the "oh we did it!" celebration that causes the unwanted dismount as well.

Edited: because I can't friggin' spell today

 

[Summer Yael]

tell the coach to threaten the team with conditioning if she does it. #toughlove

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

tell the coach to threaten the team with conditioning if she does it. #toughlove

That's a horrible way to coach.

 

[Summer Yael]

That's a horrible way to coach.

it doesnt have to be horrible. it can be like ten pushups if she does it three times

 

[Revolutionary]

My daughters old teamcoach used it when a stunt kept falling due to bad technique /not making corrections. It were only the girls in that particular stuntgroup that needed to do the push-ups.
If you can hit the stunt, and dont, due to not following directions, there should be an incentive to do better. Fact is that most kids/ teens listen better/more when a negative consequence is added. They then start fighting for the stunt in order to prevent the negative consequence, and making the coach proud, by showing them they Can do what is asked of them.
James Whitaker used the same technique when cleaning the youth team at cheer time revolution. That particular episode they did bearcrawls for being sloppy- not practicing to their full potential. Not after making one correction, but when he had done so a few times already.
I feel that a combination of both positive reinforcements and negative consequences are useful tools to have and use as a coach.
Not the only ones you should use, but it has its time and place.
Basically, you give them a choice: you try your hardest, do your job as a flyer and hit, or you choose to step out of the stunt, dciding to do your own thing, and your group is going to grow stronger due to all the push-ups.

 

[Summer Yael]

My daughters old teamcoach used it when a stunt kept falling due to bad technique /not making corrections. It were only the girls in that particular stuntgroup that needed to do the push-ups.
If you can hit the stunt, and dont, due to not following directions, there should be an incentive to do better. Fact is that most kids/ teens listen better/more when a negative consequence is added. They then start fighting for the stunt in order to prevent the negative consequence, and making the coach proud, by showing them they Can do what is asked of them.
James Whitaker used the same technique when cleaning the youth team at cheer time revolution. That particular episode they did bearcrawls for being sloppy- not practicing to their full potential. Not after making one correction, but when he had done so a few times already.
I feel that a combination of both positive reinforcements and negative consequences are useful tools to have and use as a coach.
Not the only ones you should use, but it has its time and place.
Basically, you give them a choice: you try your hardest, do your job as a flyer and hit, or you choose to step out of the stunt, dciding to do your own thing, and your group is going to grow stronger due to all the push-ups.

it was just a suggestion guys, chill. im not forcing anyone. and im not a coach. as an athlete thast what i would prfer

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Fact is that most kids/ teens listen better/more when a negative consequence is added.

This is patently false.

 

[tojofasho]

This is patently false.

To be fair, negative reinforcement is proven to be far more effective for sparking initial habit change. It must be announced beforehand that a consequence will happen, and not happen as a result of someone's actions, though. Being proactive and not reactive is the key.

For example:
At the start of class, I tell students they'll get a detention if I see their cell phone. Once I see a cell phone, they get a detention. This will break the habit.
vs.
A student takes out their phone in class and without warning I give them a detention. This will breed resentment.

However, continual negative reinforcement is never good, and will only be more detrimental in the long run. Keep in mind that nothing works for everyone, though, and depending on demographics the above facts may change drastically.

Sources Cited: Five billion teacher conferences that I've been forced to attend blegh.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

To be fair, negative reinforcement is proven to be far more effective for sparking initial habit change. It must be announced beforehand that a consequence will happen, and not happen as a result of someone's actions, though. Being proactive and not reactive is the key.

For example:
At the start of class, I tell students they'll get a detention if I see their cell phone. Once I see a cell phone, they get a detention. This will break the habit.
vs.
A student takes out their phone in class and without warning I give them a detention. This will breed resentment.

However, continual negative reinforcement is never good, and will only be more detrimental in the long run. Keep in mind that nothing works for everyone, though, and depending on demographics the above facts may change drastically.

Sources Cited: Five billion teacher conferences that I've been forced to attend blegh.

May very well be true in the classroom.

In the athletic arena, a higher level of trust is required for the team to reach its full potential.

This approach contributes to a low trust environment.

Not to mention the negative effects of teaching kids that physical conditioning is a punishment. That's a sure fire way to get about 60% effort out of them when any kind of conditioning (routine, punishment, or otherwise) is presented.

There's so much wrong with this approach from a motivational stand point that I cannot even begin to list it all.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

It's very possible that she doesn't understand where her body should be or what it should be doing. Does she have a solid prep level lib (without back spot's hands properly placed on ankle) and a solid 2-footed extension? Have you tried having her hold a lib on an elevated surface i.e. a BHS barrel, edge of tumble track, etc?

There's something terrifying about standing on one foot over three people that you can't see. Stepping out isn't intentional most of the time, it's just what happens when a flyer doesn't know how to control her body yet. If you've never flown an extended lib, it's a very weird, out of body experience at first. I agree with @OldskoolKYcheercoach - build her confidence and body awareness by bracing that lib with a prep.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

It's very possible that she doesn't understand where her body should be or what it should be doing. Does she have a solid prep level lib (without back spot's hands properly placed on ankle) and a solid 2-footed extension? Have you tried having her hold a lib on an elevated surface i.e. a BHS barrel, edge of tumble track, etc?

There's something terrifying about standing on one foot over three people that you can't see. Stepping out isn't intentional most of the time, it's just what happens when a flyer doesn't know how to control her body yet. If you've never flown an extended lib, it's a very weird, out of body experience at first. I agree with @OldskoolKYcheercoach - build her confidence and body awareness by bracing that lib with a prep.

Too many coaches do not want to take the time to build their athletes' confidence by allowing them to celebrate small victories. It takes longer to take baby steps, but the long term rewards are worth a ton more than the short term benefits of motivation by fear.