All-Star Flyers

[nicolee]

The way I see it, there are a ton of variables that determine whether or not someone is a good flyer, and size is just one of them.

I was predominantly a flyer, despite not being a teeny tiny person – I definitely flew on some people shorter than me, but I pride myself on being able to hold my weight. On the occasions that I based, I can tell you that basing a taller girl who holds herself tight and strong is a heck of a lot easier than basing a teeny girl who flops around. But, given the choice between two flyers, who are of equal abilities except that one is taller than the other, I would honestly choose the smaller girl.

It's all relative, basically. We'd be lying to say that size doesn't factor into the equation. We'd also be lying to say that it's the only important factor.

 

[BlueCat]

Just because a smaller flyer is easier to base doesn't mean that she is instantly a better flyer, the better flyer is the one who looks better in the air. If we only allow the lightest and "easiest" flyers to be in the air, we also make it much easier for bases to have bad technique.

and if you want to talk about physics, then it wouldn't be the smallest flyer who's lightest, but the least dense. first we should take into account that more mass over more area (less density) creates a lighter object, when compared to an object with a lower weight spread over less area (more dense). to actually know who would make a "lighter flyer" we should be calculating the total gravitational force that is acting on each flyer by first finding her mass and the total volume of her body and dividing mass by volume to find density. the less dense girl will feel lighter to the bases, it's just simple physics.

...

(Re-reading the post, it came across snarkier and more mean-spirited than was intended.)

 

[cheer25mom]

Just because a smaller flyer is easier to base doesn't mean that she is instantly a better flyer, the better flyer is the one who looks better in the air. If we only allow the lightest and "easiest" flyers to be in the air, we also make it much easier for bases to have bad technique.

and if you want to talk about physics, then it wouldn't be the smallest flyer who's lightest, but the least dense. first we should take into account that more mass over more area (less density) creates a lighter object, when compared to an object with a lower weight spread over less area (more dense). to actually know who would make a "lighter flyer" we should be calculating the total gravitational force that is acting on each flyer by first finding her mass and the total volume of her body and dividing mass by volume to find density. the less dense girl will feel lighter to the bases, it's just simple physics.

I teach physics, that's not how you calculate the force of gravity. Gravity ONLY depends on mass of the objects and distance between them, in the case of gravity on earth we assume the distance to be a constant and it only depends on mass of the object. THAT is the correct "simple physics", your mass determines how hard gravity pulls on you. Density isn't part of the equation at all. And won't make a difference in the "feel" of the flyer because all of the force is concentrated over one or 2 feet. Actually, the surface area of the feet WILL effect the amount of pressure bases feel, so bigger feet would be better, but density, nope.

My point is that ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL (which lots of people seem to be overlooking) the smaller flyer is easier to hit with, and the being small definitely makes it easier to be the flyer who looks good in the air.

 

[cheer25mom]

Physics being used in cheer conversation on FB...I'm shocked.

Just to add more to what has been said. Make no mistake small doesn't always mean the lightest. But size matters. I've been in situations where I struggled basing a bigger girl. Being averaged sized myself, basing girls significantly bigger than me (weight and height) is impossible and very uncomfortable. Could I base a girl who is a little taller sure, but not bigger. A 120 pound girl is going to have a hard time basing a girl who is 130 and 5'6 no matter how great her technique is.

Exactly.

 

[2cheer1here]

Ok I get all this but what do judges see.... You have team a out there with senior girls basing itty bitty 10 year old 45 lb flyers. And then team b basing true senior flyers who are say between 80-100 lbs or whatever but senior size and look like they've gone through puberty (lol). Would the fact that team b's flyers and bases have to work for that stunt be better in the technique department ... Whereas team a's bases can pretty much one handedly keep that 45 lb girl up and if they can't I mean cmon. She's 45 lbs. I would be side eyeing you if you dropped her.....


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[cheer25mom]

Ok I get all this but what do judges see.... You have team a out there with senior girls basing itty bitty 10 year old 45 lb flyers. And then team b basing true senior flyers who are say between 80-100 lbs or whatever but senior size and look like they've gone through puberty (lol). Would the fact that team b's flyers and bases have to work for that stunt be better in the technique department ... Whereas team a's bases can pretty much one handedly keep that 45 lb girl up and if they can't I mean cmon. She's 45 lbs. I would be side eyeing you if you dropped her.....


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That hasn't proven to be the case in judging as far as I can see. Its SUPPOSED to be about the quality of execution regardless of size.

 

[BlueCat]

In theory (and in practice as far as I can tell), the scoresheet and judges do not give "bonus difficulty" points for basing a larger/taller/older flyer. They also don't give credit for having smaller bases or short back spots.

 

[King]

The easiest person to put up in the air who can do the skills needed is the best person to put up. The smaller they are the easier it is to put them up. We don't hate on basketball teams for having 7 foot tall basketball players over 5 foot tall. The taller they are, usually (Steph Curry ignored), the more advantage they have at basketball.

If nine 70 pound 12 year olds walked in to my large senior team who could all do the skills needed than the flyers from last year are probably basing or flying on another team this year. That is just the way of the competitive sports and how it goes to any sport.

Honestly I can't understand any reason NOT to do that.

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

Ok I get all this but what do judges see.... You have team a out there with senior girls basing itty bitty 10 year old 45 lb flyers. And then team b basing true senior flyers who are say between 80-100 lbs or whatever but senior size and look like they've gone through puberty (lol). Would the fact that team b's flyers and bases have to work for that stunt be better in the technique department ... Whereas team a's bases can pretty much one handedly keep that 45 lb girl up and if they can't I mean cmon. She's 45 lbs. I would be side eyeing you if you dropped her.....


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A small flyer does not equal worse basing technique. I've seen this arguement pop up a few times now and the two do not have any correlation. A group with a small flyer can have beautiful technique and a group with a bigger flyer can have horrible technique.

Side note: I low-key don't understand why this flyer thing is such an issue. If you're not a coach or a flyer, why do you care so much? Of all the things in the cheer world, this specific thing does not affect you in anyway. This thread is the epitome of this SNL sketch.

 

[njallday]

Much simpler physics: have her stand on a scale and read the number that pops up.

Sometimes you don't need a formula to measure someone's density.

There's very few things you say that I don't respect and agree with, but this post rubs me the wrong way. I assume you're just having fun with the conversation, but think of your little adolescent athletes reading this. I hope that pressure doesn't create an environment of disordered eating and obsessive workout habits amongst your athletes. Forget the kids, how many Suzie's moms will read this and start restricting Suzie's dinner portion size or putting them in 5 extra classes a week to lose weight?

I've heard CA is a wonderfully positive environment for your athletes so I hope it stays that way and you're keeping an eye on the health of your athletes.

 

[MakeYourMark]

Lets remember that some of these girls flying on senior teams that look like babies might actually be 14/15. Not everyone is the same, not everyone develops and grows at the same rate.

 

[cheer25mom]

A small flyer does not equal worse basing technique. I've seen this arguement pop up a few times now and the two do not have any correlation. A group with a small flyer can have beautiful technique and a group with a bigger flyer can have horrible technique.

Side note: I low-key don't understand why this flyer thing is such an issue. If you're not a coach or a flyer, why do you care so much? Of all the things in the cheer world, this specific thing does not affect you in anyway. This thread is the epitome of this SNL sketch.

Because my kid is basing those flyers. She puts her own safety on the line to protect her flyer. Having the best girls for the job in the air makes the situation safer for everyone. The culture of not pulling girls who are simply too heavy for their bases or not using good technique puts everyone in the stunt group's safety at risk. Flyers don't want to give up their flying spots. They like that limelight, I get it, and in the name of "positive body image" some coaches aren't willing to be honest and tell them it's time to learn to base. Or coaches don't want to lose them to another gym that will fly them one more season just to recruit them. Very few people think about the stress that places on the bodies of the bases trying to hold her up or the increased risk of one of them getting hurt trying to save her. It's a lot easier to save a 70 lb flyer rocketing toward the ground than a 130 lb one. My kid has gotten hurt( thank God not seriously) basing people who had no business in the air.

 

[BlueCat]

There's very few things you say that I don't respect and agree with, but this post rubs me the wrong way. I assume you're just having fun with the conversation, but think of your little adolescent athletes reading this. I hope that pressure doesn't create an environment of disordered eating and obsessive workout habits amongst your athletes. Forget the kids, how many Suzie's moms will read this and start restricting Suzie's dinner portion size or putting them in 5 extra classes a week to lose weight?

I've heard CA is a wonderfully positive environment for your athletes so I hope it stays that way and you're keeping an eye on the health of your athletes.

My "scale" comment was specifically directed at her lengthy explanation of how to measure a flyer's "gravitational force"/mass/etc. We don't use scales and have never, ever tested someone's weight.

To your point, athletes losing weight too quickly and/or losing weight beyond what is healthy for their body type is negative for everyone. First and foremost, it affects the health of the athlete. Clearly, that is enough reason on its own. Even from a purely competitive perspective, it is usually a net negative anyway - those athletes will lose more strength than can possibly be offset by their slight gains from being lighter.

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

Because my kid is basing those flyers. She puts her own safety on the line to protect her flyer. Having the best girls for the job in the air makes the situation safer for everyone. The culture of not pulling girls who are simply too heavy for their bases or not using good technique puts everyone in the stunt group's safety at risk. Flyers don't want to give up their flying spots. They like that limelight, I get it, and in the name of "positive body image" some coaches aren't willing to be honest and tell them it's time to learn to base. Or coaches don't want to lose them to another gym that will fly them one more season just to recruit them. Very few people think about the stress that places on the bodies of the bases trying to hold her up or the increased risk of one of them getting hurt trying to save her. It's a lot easier to save a 70 lb flyer rocketing toward the ground than a 130 lb one. My kid has gotten hurt( thank God not seriously) basing people who had no business in the air.

So it obviously affects you and the rhetorical question was not directed towards you then...

And I was the base who consistently was given the heaviest flyers season after season even if there were better options for the team. For years my flyers were taller than me. Darn my stocky build and strong legs. So, I stand on the same side you (and your daughter) do.

 

[lifeoftheparty]

My "scale" comment was specifically directed at her lengthy explanation of how to measure a flyer's "gravitational force"/mass/etc. We don't use scales and have never, ever tested someone's weight.

To your point, athletes losing weight too quickly and/or losing weight beyond what is healthy for their body type is negative for everyone. First and foremost, it affects the health of the athlete. Clearly, that is enough reason on its own. Even from a purely competitive perspective, it is usually a net negative anyway - those athletes will lose more strength than can possibly be offset by their slight gains from being lighter.

CP is 11yo and approximately 66 lbs. She has been a flyer all her career so far. I would suspect she will fly for a few more years. I know there will be a time where she will have to transition to a base. With the difficulty of stunts I am aware that they are easier to hit with smaller flyers. I'm definitely ok with the that but when you transition a flyer to a base on LVL 5 how successful has that been and how do you go about it. I worry that when she is told she needs to transition it will be incredibly difficult to base lvl 5 and never even basing lvl 1. Just curious how other gyms make that work.