All-Star For The Judges

[King]

Ok, so I am pondering this. I will use Large Senior for an example.

Right now CEA, F5, and WCSS are doing comparable stunt sequences. Yes some are harder, BUT it is not like one is revolutionarily better than the others.

But what if...

WCSS started doing something significantly harder than everyone else. Let us say 9 true immediate double ups (that release, no one holds on and does a turn), dip, tick tock full around at the top to opposite stretch, immediate dip full around tick tock to scorpion double.

That sequence is AMAZINGLY harder than anything else anyone is doing right now. How would it score in comparison if F5 and CEA are already close to topping the stunt score? If WCSS went first at Worlds (let us say they unveiled it there) would that mean the judges would probably lower CEA and F5 stunt score in relation? What if WCSS went last in the division? Would for the next round the judges adjust and score differently?

And would it be smart for WCSS to publicize the HECK out of the stunt sequence before Worlds and to Worlds judges so they are aware of what they are attempting and doing?

 

[lifeoftheparty]

If WCSS opened the division with that sequence executed well they should definitely be scored higher and the rest even if they hit should be scored lower because the level of difficulty and execution. I don't know that they would have to publicize it since the judges should judge accordingly. FTR I am NOT a worlds judges Just my opinion.

 

[King]

If WCSS opened the division with that sequence executed well they should definitely be scored higher and the rest even if they hit should be scored lower because the level of difficulty and execution. I don't know that they would have to publicize it since the judges should judge accordingly. FTR I am NOT a worlds judges Just my opinion.

I agree, but if WCSS went last in the division how would the judges know something that 'revolutionary' is coming?

 

[lifeoftheparty]

Hmm I see what you are saying. They wouldn't, but scoring from what I see for the Elite level is 19-25 for execution and the same for difficulty. Correct me if I am wrong. So say they close the division there should still be room to move scores up. Although CEA and F5 are doing top level skills at this point there is still room for advancement. They may not be scored as ahead as they would like to see but there should still be room for placing them clearly ahead in difficulty and perhaps execution.

 

[xpressjag]

I'm sure scores would need to be readjusted on either stunts or overall impression, if not they would max out the diffculty. Although there is a range for difficulty it is still up to judges to give you what they want within that range

 

[King]

But its all about expectations. Who would you consider the best tumbling team ever? Top Gun? Would they max out tumbling?

What if a team walked out RIGHT after TG went and did squad standing doubles. How does a judge know IF they dont know what is coming next?

 

[King]

I'm sure scores would need to be readjusted on either stunts or overall impression, if not they would max out the diffculty. Although there is a range for difficulty it is still up to judges to give you what they want within that range

Correct, but would the judges make adjustments for finals? Or does CEA and F5 have an argument they should score the same as they did in prelims?

 

[ShutItDown]

would it matter if something is revolutionary?
if cali did 7 jumps to back, and you only need 3 to max out, would that be scored the same because 3 is the max you need and anymore is unnecessary?
Maybe also with the number of doubles you need to max out. as far as I know f5 had a double every pass last year but scored the same or lower as everyone else because the other teams reached the number needed to max out for that skill.
With stunts I always felt it was the same concept.
Idk if that makes sense but that is what I have learned from reading threads on here and from coaches, but i would really love to know the answer too.

 

[lifeoftheparty]

Yes it is all about expectations. I think if as a judge you maxed out CEA and F5 in prelims for stunts you got a little problem on your hands. WCSS should be scored higher in both prelims and finals. I guess each judge is different but I would alway leave room for growth no one in my opinion is a 25. So I will always have room to move my score up no matter what.

 

[King]

would it matter if something is revolutionary?
if cali did 7 jumps to back, and you only need 3 to max out, would that be scored the same because 3 is the max you need and anymore is unnecessary?
Maybe also with the number of doubles you need to max out. as far as I know f5 had a double every pass last year but scored the same or lower as everyone else because the other teams reached the number needed to max out for that skill.
With stunts I always felt it was the same concept.
Idk if that makes sense but that is what I have learned from reading threads on here and from coaches, but i would really love to know the answer too.

There is this kinda unspoken level of awesome (we will call it) that teams need to be around to win. If a team goes above and beyond this level all their difficulty and hard work may not be rewarded that well.... UNLESS the judges were aware of the team blowing away the current accepted level of awesome.

What if the team with the standing doubles was 'known' to all the judges and all the judges were aware they were competing and doing these skills (very well I might add!) they would probably still put, say TG in the highest category, but would probalby not max them out (I am not picking on them obviously, they are just a good example).

TG would get the comment - add more standing doubles to max out (hah).

So my point is if you were about to do something revolutionary and mind blowing make sure you send a tape to all the Worlds judges?

 

[wcssfan]

Am I right in thinking that in competitive gymnastics the judges and audience know the pass that will be attempted? Maybe cheer should go the same way in that a written document of all skills being attempted in a routine needs to be submitted prior to competing...

 

[ShutItDown]

There is this kinda unspoken level of awesome (we will call it) that teams need to be around to win. If a team goes above and beyond this level all their difficulty and hard work may not be rewarded that well.... UNLESS the judges were aware of the team blowing away the current accepted level of awesome.

What if the team with the standing doubles was 'known' to all the judges and all the judges were aware they were competing and doing these skills (very well I might add!) they would probably still put, say TG in the highest category, but would probalby not max them out (I am not picking on them obviously, they are just a good example).

TG would get the comment - add more standing doubles to max out (hah).

So my point is if you were about to do something revolutionary and mind blowing make sure you send a tape to all the Worlds judges?

that makes sense. i feel like that would definitely be something worlds should do just as much as they are allowed to view tape for legal questions.
then they could make adjustments or to just be aware.

 

[King]

I have an actual example of this situation! Bangkok!

My open team that year had a 'good' pyramid. True level 6 entries and transitions. I think we got 24.5 out of 25(average) on our pyramid difficulty. In comparison to everyone but Bangkok that was an appropriate score. Had Bangkok gone first wed probably have scored lower. What could have Bangkok done to have been properly rewarded?

 

[tumbleyoda]

From a judging perspective (gymnastics only) the team name, colors, or reputation (real or imagined) should not play into the judging of the routine. Each element and sequence of elements should stand on their own merit based on how they were executed and performed. Head judges would intruct us prior to the competition to judge exactly what we saw but to leave room just in case someone topped what we thought was untoppable. This was before the system was revamped to score above a 10.

The mere fact that you may have to let them know what is coming ahead of time points to a flaw in the system. The only possible exception I see to that is competing a skill never before competed. That would be the only time IMO it would be appropiate to let the judges know something unusal and not seen before was coming.

The cynic in me says that certain teams will not be beaten (unless they bomb completely at which point it be argued they beat themselves) because it is already percieved by fans and judges (the impartial ones) that they are so much superior to everyone else. No name All Stars who gets an At large Bid to Worlds from a competition people dont really monitor could potentially blow everybody out of the water. But if they are from a non cheer state, keep quiet and dont promote themselves, go first on Saturday am at Worlds no matter how great their routine is, even if it is even or better than the perceived top 10, it wont be judged as so. It leaves little room for suprises either in routines or in placements.

Now the following year they would have a chance because then fans and judges would know to look for them.

 

[King]

From a judging perspective (gymnastics only) the team name, colors, or reputation (real or imagined) should not play into the judging of the routine. Each element and sequence of elements should stand on their own merit based on how they were executed and performed. Head judges would intruct us prior to the competition to judge exactly what we saw but to leave room just in case someone topped what we thought was untoppable. This was before the system was revamped to score above a 10.

The mere fact that you may have to let them know what is coming ahead of time points to a flaw in the system. The only possible exception I see to that is competing a skill never before competed. That would be the only time IMO it would be appropiate to let the judges know something unusal and not seen before was coming.

The cynic in me says that certain teams will not be beaten (unless they bomb completely at which point it be argued they beat themselves) because it is already percieved by fans and judges (the impartial ones) that they are so much superior to everyone else. No name All Stars who gets an At large Bid to Worlds from a competition people dont really monitor could potentially blow everybody out of the water. But if they are from a non cheer state, keep quiet and dont promote themselves, go first on Saturday am at Worlds no matter how great their routine is, even if it is even or better than the perceived top 10, it wont be judged as so. It leaves little room for suprises either in routines or in placements.

Now the following year they would have a chance because then fans and judges would know to look for them.

So a bit like the BCS, you have to have multiple years of success to win.

What if you are already established? What about the Shooting Stars scenario I described? I know we have Worlds judges that read (though they are a good bit quieter or more discrete). Besides letting Fierce know with a video what else is someone to do?