All-Star Gym Owners Refusing To Sign Release... Appeal Process?..

[Deleted member 15]

from what i am gathering in general opinion here.. gyms owe athletes nothing, and promises made to athletes mean nothing. The money you pay and trust you put in a gym is only for cheerleading, not for worlds, even when you are signing on to a worlds team. Also worlds is not a big deal to miss. Owners and coaches have free reign after your athlete hits the mat to do what ever they wish with no repercussions. Safety issues dont exist, and you should be psychic as a parent and predict any issues that may present themselves after nov 1st. All coaches are honorable and would not hold an athlete out of spite. Also it is perfectly fine if only a few athletes fall through the cracks and lose out. As long as coaches and owners continue to have full control, its all sunshine and unicorns.

Exactly! Now we're on the same page.

 

[Valvalmom]

from what i am gathering in general opinion here.. gyms owe athletes nothing, and promises made to athletes mean nothing. The money you pay and trust you put in a gym is only for cheerleading, not for worlds, even when you are signing on to a worlds team. Also worlds is not a big deal to miss. Owners and coaches have free reign after your athlete hits the mat to do what ever they wish with no repercussions. Safety issues dont exist, and you should be psychic as a parent and predict any issues that may present themselves after nov 1st. All coaches are honorable and would not hold an athlete out of spite. Also it is perfectly fine if only a few athletes fall through the cracks and lose out. As long as coaches and owners continue to have full control, its all sunshine and unicorns.

The vast majority of gyms are on the up and up. If they tried to field a worlds level 5 team, their reasoning for dropping to a level 4 is that the team isn't performing at a competitive level 5. Therefore, instead of chasing an improbable bid and risking injury, they are making the team competitive for the remainder of the season. Not to rope kids into a contract with a worlds team and then (insert wicked witch laugh) pulling a bait and switch to a level 4. And if the TEAM isn't performing well, aren't YOU part of that TEAM? As a parent, I have a problem with "my kid is better this everyone else on this team so we are going down the street to join a better team."

My advice is read your contract before you sign to any gym. Cheerleading is way too expensive to sign your child away without knowing what you are signing. By the worlds levels, as a parent, you should know the ins and outs of the industry well enough to understand your contract, understand what can go wrong, and understand what your goals are. Is your concern is the team may drop levels or the gym may close but there is nothing in the contract to cover those issues, ask for an amendment prior to signing. If the request is denied, look elsewhere before signing.

 

[L5cheermom]

In my opinion this is a free market kind of thing. Although your child may suffer from the current situation it doesn't do anything to prevent it happening to another child by withholding the gym name. I feel issues like this should be discussed publicly with all parties identifying themselves. That is the only way that I as a parent and source of $$$ for my athlete can make an informed decision should I end up in your area. Were I looking at gyms in your area a situation like this would influence my decision whether to join this gym or not - whether I had a L5 athlete or not. I would like to hear both sides of the story and decide for myself. Perhaps I would side with the athlete, perhaps not. As long as we all continue to reman secretive we are all on our own.

 

[mollymags]

The vast majority of gyms are on the up and up. If they tried to field a worlds level 5 team, their reasoning for dropping to a level 4 is that the team isn't performing at a competitive level 5. Therefore, instead of chasing an improbable bid and risking injury, they are making the team competitive for the remainder of the season. Not to rope kids into a contract with a worlds team and then (insert wicked witch laugh) pulling a bait and switch to a level 4. And if the TEAM isn't performing well, aren't YOU part of that TEAM? As a parent, I have a problem with "my kid is better this everyone else on this team so we are going down the street to join a better team."

My advice is read your contract before you sign to any gym. Cheerleading is way too expensive to sign your child away without knowing what you are signing. By the worlds levels, as a parent, you should know the ins and outs of the industry well enough to understand your contract, understand what can go wrong, and understand what your goals are. Is your concern is the team may drop levels or the gym may close but there is nothing in the contract to cover those issues, ask for an amendment prior to signing. If the request is denied, look elsewhere before signing.

This is what drives me crazy about people complaining about teams dropping a level and that's why an athlete should be released. If your team moved to level 4, let's be honest, you probably weren't getting a bid anyway. If a gym started with a level 5 team and then saw that the team was not progressing or hitting things correctly or safely as they had hoped, they SHOULD move down for the safety of the athletes. I don't think it's hard to tell by October that your team is not going to be a successful level 5.

I don't disagree that there should be some sort of an appeals process, but I do think there would need to be very strict criteria in order to be considered for an appeal and I don't think all of the criteria I personally believe should be met is even possible to prove at this point. I don't know that the USASF has the time or the manpower to go through every random appeal and correctly determine whether the gym or the athlete/parent is right.

I think you should have to submit an invoice from the gym stating you have a $0 balance. That's easy. If the gym cannot or will not provide you or the USASF with an invoice, whether it show a balance or not, that's a strike against the gym.

I think that an athlete must be credentialed at level 5 in all areas PRIOR TO NOVEMBER 1ST before submitting an appeal to be released from a gym because they do not have a level 5 team.

I think there must be documented proof that the gym is "unsafe" if that is your claim to leave. I wish it was possible for the USASF track all deductions/legalities for a team. If you have a team that is consistently receiving excessive deductions (because the athletes cannot safely perform the skills you are having them do) or safety deductions at event after event, they lose the right to hold an athlete. (I think this sort of thing would be beneficial in more than just this situation, by the way, but it would be SO difficult to track and do something about). If you believe the gym is unsafe because of criminal actions of a coach, I would assume you should be able to prove that charges were pressed against that person, and therefore, should be eligible for release.

I do think it's kind of crazy that a gym closing down is not an automatic release, but at the same time, what if the gym is closing because of kids jumping ship for frivolous reasons? If you were a member of a gym at the time it's doors closed (meaning you did not leave your team at that gym to go to another level 5 without a release prior to the closing), you should be granted automatic release. If you were somewhere else at the time of the closing, well, then you may be SOL.

 

[debbie]

from what i am gathering in general opinion here.. gyms owe athletes nothing, and promises made to athletes mean nothing. The money you pay and trust you put in a gym is only for cheerleading, not for worlds, even when you are signing on to a worlds team. Also worlds is not a big deal to miss. Owners and coaches have free reign after your athlete hits the mat to do what ever they wish with no repercussions. Safety issues dont exist, and you should be psychic as a parent and predict any issues that may present themselves after nov 1st. All coaches are honorable and would not hold an athlete out of spite. Also it is perfectly fine if only a few athletes fall through the cracks and lose out. As long as coaches and owners continue to have full control, its all sunshine and unicorns.

Thank you!!!!! Shiny

from what i am gathering in general opinion here.. gyms owe athletes nothing, and promises made to athletes mean nothing. The money you pay and trust you put in a gym is only for cheerleading, not for worlds, even when you are signing on to a worlds team. Also worlds is not a big deal to miss. Owners and coaches have free reign after your athlete hits the mat to do what ever they wish with no repercussions. Safety issues dont exist, and you should be psychic as a parent and predict any issues that may present themselves after nov 1st. All coaches are honorable and would not hold an athlete out of spite. Also it is perfectly fine if only a few athletes fall through the cracks and lose out. As long as coaches and owners continue to have full control, its all sunshine and unicorns.

 

[debbie]

from what i am gathering in general opinion here.. gyms owe athletes nothing, and promises made to athletes mean nothing. The money you pay and trust you put in a gym is only for cheerleading, not for worlds, even when you are signing on to a worlds team. Also worlds is not a big deal to miss. Owners and coaches have free reign after your athlete hits the mat to do what ever they wish with no repercussions. Safety issues dont exist, and you should be psychic as a parent and predict any issues that may present themselves after nov 1st. All coaches are honorable and would not hold an athlete out of spite. Also it is perfectly fine if only a few athletes fall through the cracks and lose out. As long as coaches and owners continue to have full control, its all sunshine and unicorns.

Oops shimmy shimmy!!! Thank you!!!

 

[Valvalmom]

So let's assume there is an appeals process. How long is it? If its a matter of she said/gym said,I could see it dragging on for months. How much documentation would you need to request an appeal or could anyone (and everyone) request one? If started late enough in the season with no hopes of getting the appeal closed before worlds, could it not be used simply to replace the need for the release?

What happens to the athlete/team during that process? Does she practice with her new team? Compete with them? Or does she have to sit out during the process? What if she can practice/compete with the new team while the release is being appealed but then the appeal is denied just a week or 2 before worlds? What happens to her spot? And is her new team now left to fill it? Short of said athlete being the best of the best, is it worth the risk to the new team to place an athlete "on appeal" on a team? And if the athlete is top of their game, does new gym recruit them to get the team to worlds during the appeal without concern for the athlete herself? Would an appeals denial be a legitimate replacement at worlds above and beyond the allotted roster changes? If so, there's no end to the number of athletes that could be recruited preworlds and then switched out.

If a gym closes and you were a member in good standing at that time, you should be released. If it closed because others were leaving, I would hope that the former owner would sign for those that stuck by her. If there are safety issues, please address them to the gym and usasf prior to leaving and asking to be released. I have to doubt that safety issues are at fault when just an athlete or two leaves a program. No one else knew or cared? Sorry but I find that hard to believe.

And if there was an appeals process and I was on the deciding committee, you'd better believe I would want to see documentation of your reasons for leaving, especially if you were soon aging out and leaving a team not receiving a bid for one who had. I would also want to speak to athletes and staff at both facilities to ensure no recruitment or other issues were taking place. It could be a lengthly, expensive process.

 

[newcheerdad]

I get the whole "caveat emptor" concept when it comes to picking your gym, but the reality is that:

1. Things happen that are outside the gym's control.
2. There are dishonest actors out there.

Look, if an athlete owes a gym thousands of dollars, then they shouldn't be allowed to skip out on their obligations and go to another gym. Otherwise, I honestly think we should be erring on the side of letting kids leave and cheer elsewhere - even if it messes up somebody's Worlds' team.

That's why I still think my proposal works: if you leave a gym, you are not allowed to compete with the new gym for 90 days. Within that 90 days, your old gym can block your transfer only if they provide verifiable evidence that you owe them money and can block said transfer until your bill is paid. Your old gym can also, if they so desire, waive the 90 day rule and allow the release to go through before then.

I believe the rule would be a deterrent to gym hopping but would still allow athletes a modicum of flexibility to leave a gym if it isn't the right fit for them - especially earlier in the season. It would also take the power out of the gym owners' hands as to whether they release an athlete or not and would be an incentive for them to provide a better product to ensure that their elite athletes stay.

 

[wcdad]

This is what happened to my CP last yr long story short she was kicked off a team in the beginning of Jan we were charged full price for comp fees and 75% of the tuition. CP wanted to cheer (hasn't missed more then 3 days since she was 9) she wanted to go to another gym. I made every attempt to make nice while they went as far as telling her old teammates that they couldn't even speak to her (if that isn't bullying IDK what is) I too understand why this rule is in place but it only protects Gym owners it does nothing for our kids. My Cp said it best while we watched worlds live she said in tears "I'm free, the hostage situation is over. They can no longer hold me against my will, I'm free"

I would disagree that this does nothing for the kids. What about the kids that are left behind the one that leaves. Are they not affected by having a team member quit, to go and compete at another gym? There is a commitment made not only to the gym but to the team. So the rule does protect the kids.

 

[wcdad]

It's no secret I do not like this rule and I've expressed my displeasure with it in other threads about the topic so I will keep it brief here...

I feel that if a gym wants to protect itself from gym hopping athletes at just two of 7 levels then it should be 100% on them. If a gym asked me to sign a document stating my daughter couldn't compete elsewhere that would send up a HUGE red flag about their abilities to retain athletes.

Maybe I'm biased but I feel gym owners do not need to be protected, athletes do!

Where would your red flag come from when a coach and /or owner from another gym recruited and got a kid or 2 from your daughter’s team to leave her team to go compete at worlds? It had nothing to do with what your gym was doing wrong.



There would be no red flag for you to see. There are gyms, Owners and coaches out there that took advantage of the system and left some good teams and kids in upheaval.
Is this rule not protecting the rest of the team left behind?

 

[likemotherlikedaughter]

Suppose your lvl 5 worlds team was dropped to lvl 4...what is the big deal signing a release for someone to go and compete on a world's team? By then you're lvl 4 team's comp season is pretty much over! And I am sorry but if this was happening to my kid I would be beyond pissed :O I have invested way too much time and $ in my child's sport. Lets face it cheerleading is not cheap! And my CP has worked their butt off for how many years to have the skills to go to worlds? I would be suing the gym owner for breaking their promise to my child

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[wcdad]

Suppose your lvl 5 worlds team was dropped to lvl 4...what is the big deal signing a release for someone to go and compete on a world's team? By then you're lvl 4 team's comp season is pretty much over! And I am sorry but if this was happening to my kid I would be beyond pissed :O I have invested way too much time and $ in my child's sport. Lets face it cheerleading is not cheap! And my CP has worked their butt off for how many years to have the skills to go to worlds? I would be suing the gym owner for breaking their promise to my child

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I would have to ask when you became aware that your daughter was on a level 4 team. Most people can tell in September what a team is going to be. If a team does not have majority Level 5 skill and cannot compete with true level 5 and your daughter is one of the few that has the skill, I would say you are in the wrong place... I have never not known where my daughters team stands, skill wise and true level by September. The rule gives you till November 1 to make a choice.

The real issue is gyms try to field level 5 teams with a handful of kids that have the true skill. The rest are lower levels. Making the level 5 kids ripe to poach when it comes time for worlds by other gyms.

 

[kristenthegreat]

What could/should the USASF accept as proof in this scenario?

Wonderful question. Seeing as I've never been a part of a gym closing, I'd have to ask others in this scenario for some clues about the process before offering an answer. I'm not even sure how gyms go about notifying the USASF, or if they just assume after any paperwork hasn't been renewed.

Anyone been a part of a gym closing midseason? How were you informed?

Would a forwarded email from the one the USASF has on file (whatever email the gym registers with) be sufficient? And the athletes are the on 'hold' until the gym proves otherwise? Just a starting suggestion, others are free to jump in if they have ideas!

 

[REA Dad]

Where would your red flag come from when a coach and /or owner from another gym recruited and got a kid or 2 from your daughter’s team to leave her team to go compete at worlds? It had nothing to do with what your gym was doing wrong.



There would be no red flag for you to see. There are gyms, Owners and coaches out there that took advantage of the system and left some good teams and kids in upheaval.
Is this rule not protecting the rest of the team left behind?

Something would have to be wrong with the gym in your example or the cheerleaders wouldn't want to leave.

 

[wcdad]

How many people do you think are being held to this each year do you think? I would guess not many. Under a dozen if that. The rule is and has worked.

Buyer beware when you pick a program in May.