All-Star International Coed 5/all-girl 5 Thoughts

[BSS2000]

but most other countries are setup to only do level 6 like a level 6 scoresheet. check out any of the world or international competitions on youtube. and if you say no levle 6 then an team competing at ICU would have to have a completely different routine than they could take to worlds. lots of them do the same thing.

I don't see that as a reason. I've seen teams compete level 5 then level 6 in the same season, it's not impossible. Plus if they're never competing the progression up to level 6, how are they really prepared to do level 6 skills safely?

 

[King]

I don't see that as a reason. I've seen teams compete level 5 then level 6 in the same season, it's not impossible. Plus if they're never competing the progression up to level 6, how are they really prepared to do level 6 skills safely?

The same can be said for them skipping levels 1-4 for all of international. It isn't like the system is as mature and developed as here. There are not mini level 1 teams competing putting in those basic cheer skills. So the argument that a level 6 encourages them to skip level 5 without proper progression has flaws. Really they should limit most of international to level 3 until we see solid squad tumbling and what not.

 

[*Becky*Stars*]

To say American teams shouldn't compete in the international division is stupid, if they didn't there would be no point to "Worlds". The united states has a role in the international division for sure. All these talented older people can't compete in the regular
all star division. To the people that don't think international teams should get paid bids, I disagree. We work just as hard if not harder to get to worlds, if your team can't win a bid with money ... sorry.

ye ok i kinda agree with this, that if USA wasnt in the international division they cant call it worlds. But then so why, say in the small senior division, when Stingray Orange win all the time, is everyone saying they are World Champions when they never actually competed in a competition which involved the rest of the world???

I am not at all saying that in the non international divisions that an international team would win or even rank in medal positions because i doubt that would actually happen. But i just dont get it they say they are going to worlds and competing at worlds and are world champions, when they only ever competed against US teams and not the rest of the world.

Just saying!

 

[BSS2000]

The same can be said for them skipping levels 1-4 for all of international. It isn't like the system is as mature and developed as here. There are not mini level 1 teams competing putting in those basic cheer skills. So the argument that a level 6 encourages them to skip level 5 without proper progression has flaws. Really they should limit most of international to level 3 until we see solid squad tumbling and what not.

They are in fact skipping the proper progression part of cheer that we believe in here. Its no wonder they can't tumble. They're tossing people in flipping baskets that probably can't do a back tuck on their own. Is that really safe? I wonder what kind of cheer injuries occur in these foreign countries. I totally agree they should be limited, but 5 might be more realistic.

 

[Ashley]

They are in fact skipping the proper progression part of cheer that we believe in here. Its no wonder they can't tumble. They're tossing people in flipping baskets that probably can't do a back tuck on their own. Is that really safe? I wonder what kind of cheer injuries occur in these foreign countries. I totally agree they should be limited, but 5 might be more realistic.

That's me actually. I can do all kinds of flipping baskets, but can't land a standing back on my own. I didn't start tumbling until high school. It took me like 4 years to learn a backhandspring, but way back in the day when I was in high school, there wasn't much of an emphasis on tumbling. The thing with Open, especially level 6 teams, is that most of them don't come from all-stars, so obviously they haven't gone through the level progressions. Just because I can't tumble and didn't do all-stars until I was already in college, doesn't mean I didn't do any progressions though. I progressed through Pop Warner, through high school, through college. I started with straight ride baskets, then toe touches/pikes, then on to flipping baskets and such. There's no reason to believe that just because those international teams didn't progress through levels like most all-star cheerleaders did, that they are jumping into level 6 with no prior experience.

I could also argue that a tuck basket toss is safer and easier than a kick double. And that basic level 6 pyramids are safer than most level 5 ones.

 

[King]

They are in fact skipping the proper progression part of cheer that we believe in here. Its no wonder they can't tumble. They're tossing people in flipping baskets that probably can't do a back tuck on their own. Is that really safe? I wonder what kind of cheer injuries occur in these foreign countries. I totally agree they should be limited, but 5 might be more realistic.

So now we come back to the original point of this conversation, paid bids. We know other countries are competing in levels and in ways that is not good for their progression. The way the division is setup allows them to do so. So to encourage progression and proper development we set two types of divisions, club and open. We make the scoresheets balanced and do not favor only stunting in International. We drop the name international cause it is stupid (we will just call it open). Club is up to 18, Open is 18+. If after all that a competition wants to give a team that is 18+ open coed 5 a paid bid, I will say that is fine.

ye ok i kinda agree with this, that if USA wasnt in the international division they cant call it worlds. But then so why, say in the small senior division, when Stingray Orange win all the time, is everyone saying they are World Champions when they never actually competed in a competition which involved the rest of the world???

I am not at all saying that in the non international divisions that an international team would win or even rank in medal positions because i doubt that would actually happen. But i just dont get it they say they are going to worlds and competing at worlds and are world champions, when they only ever competed against US teams and not the rest of the world.

Just saying!

Every country is allowed to compete in the club division. Some Canadian teams have compete in the club divisions. Your country is more than welcome to send as many teams as they want into the club divisions. In fact, if they would do this we could fix the international divisions like I would prefer. So yes, teams who win worlds to me are world champions. No one is restricted from competing with them.

 

[King]

That's me actually. I can do all kinds of flipping baskets, but can't land a standing back on my own. I didn't start tumbling until high school. It took me like 4 years to learn a backhandspring, but way back in the day when I was in high school, there wasn't much of an emphasis on tumbling. The thing with Open, especially level 6 teams, is that most of them don't come from all-stars, so obviously they haven't gone through the level progressions. Just because I can't tumble and didn't do all-stars until I was already in college, doesn't mean I didn't do any progressions though. I progressed through Pop Warner, through high school, through college. I started with straight ride baskets, then toe touches/pikes, then on to flipping baskets and such. There's no reason to believe that just because those international teams didn't progress through levels like most all-star cheerleaders did, that they are jumping into level 6 with no prior experience.

I could also argue that a tuck basket toss is safer and easier than a kick double. And that basic level 6 pyramids are safer than most level 5 ones.

You are correct. A back tuck basket is WAY easier than a kick double. And basic level 6 is WAY easier than advanced level 5.

 

[Ashley]

You are correct. A back tuck basket is WAY easier than a kick double. And basic level 6 is WAY easier than advanced level 5.

Basic level 6 is also probably easier than basic level 5.

 

[King]

The "international 5" age bracket (I agree the name is awful, by the way) fills a need for many gyms. While there are some gyms who could fill an entire team with athletes over 18, there are many more who have just a few athletes that age who still want to have the opportunity to cheer. Whether it is a small gym who is struggling to put together enough 12-18 year old athletes to form a single L5 team - a medium gym that has enough for a single senior 5, but not really 2 - or a mega-gym that has enough for 4 and not really 5, the "international" age bracket helps those programs find teams for those people.

By eliminating that age bracket option, you would force many of those athletes to either not cheer, or quit their current gym and go to another gym (probably a gym like yours or mine) that has the resources to create entire team(s) using only 19+ year-olds. While that may be great in the short-term for the mega-gyms, that would be bad for the industry, IMO. The state of the economy is such that we shouldn't be making it that much more difficult for gyms to form teams.

To me, it is much like suggesting that we restrict the mini division to ONLY 6-7 year olds, the youth to 8-9, junior 10-13, and senior 14-18. There would be just as many total divisions, but gyms would have a dramatically tougher time making teams without the overlapping age ranges. By doing that, you would have: 1. Cut back on the options for each individual athlete AND 2. Made creating teams more difficult for gyms - all without even the benefit of eliminating any divisions.

I have been thinking about this and I think you can agree to this. The Worlds divisions should be such that you are either club or open. But with the new Open Level 4 proposal you can make that 14+, a non worlds division, and have a place for all those kids that want to cheer. What do you think?

 

[BSS2000]

That's me actually. I can do all kinds of flipping baskets, but can't land a standing back on my own. I didn't start tumbling until high school. It took me like 4 years to learn a backhandspring, but way back in the day when I was in high school, there wasn't much of an emphasis on tumbling. The thing with Open, especially level 6 teams, is that most of them don't come from all-stars, so obviously they haven't gone through the level progressions. Just because I can't tumble and didn't do all-stars until I was already in college, doesn't mean I didn't do any progressions though. I progressed through Pop Warner, through high school, through college. I started with straight ride baskets, then toe touches/pikes, then on to flipping baskets and such. There's no reason to believe that just because those international teams didn't progress through levels like most all-star cheerleaders did, that they are jumping into level 6 with no prior experience.

I could also argue that a tuck basket toss is safer and easier than a kick double. And that basic level 6 pyramids are safer than most level 5 ones.

yea I'm sure a tuck basket is easier, but they're allowed to try things way more difficult than a kick double. There's always people who join cheer later in age that don't do the progression. I started cheering level 5 in 4th grade, doesn't mean it was right. I struggled with tumbling until I got to a gym that actually taught the progression of tumbling and stunting. I just don't think level 6 is the place to start. If these countries don't model our system how do they expect to progress and excel in an American competition?


Kingston I agree with your idea but I think it should be 16+

 

[King]

yea I'm sure a tuck basket is easier, but they're allowed to try things way more difficult than a kick double. There's always people who join cheer later in age that don't do the progression. I started cheering level 5 in 4th grade, doesn't mean it was right. I struggled with tumbling until I got to a gym that actually taught the progression of tumbling and stunting. I just don't think level 6 is the place to start. If these countries don't model our system how do they expect to progress and excel in an American competition?


Kingston I agree with your idea but I think it should be 16+

ok, just 2 more years to go.

biggest problem with 16+? i dont think 25 year old males should ever be on a team with minors. lets not setup that situation for things to happen.

 

[BSS2000]

ok, just 2 more years to go.

biggest problem with 16+? i dont think 25 year old males should ever be on a team with minors. lets not setup that situation for things to happen.

Ha! Yea, that's a whole other argument.

 

[King]

Ha! Yea, that's a whole other argument.

I think if IOC 5 was 14 - 20 I would have less a problem with it. but then that would mean we would have to great an IOOC 5 divison for 20+.

I like open divisions. I think tey allow people to keep cheering. Love the idea of non worlds based Open 4 for people to keep going. It just needs to have NO overlap with club. You are one... then one day you age out and move on to another.

 

[*Becky*Stars*]

So now we come back to the original point of this conversation, paid bids. We know other countries are competing in levels and in ways that is not good for their progression. The way the division is setup allows them to do so. So to encourage progression and proper development we set two types of divisions, club and open. We make the scoresheets balanced and do not favor only stunting in International. We drop the name international cause it is stupid (we will just call it open). Club is up to 18, Open is 18+. If after all that a competition wants to give a team that is 18+ open coed 5 a paid bid, I will say that is fine.



Every country is allowed to compete in the club division. Some Canadian teams have compete in the club divisions. Your country is more than welcome to send as many teams as they want into the club divisions. In fact, if they would do this we could fix the international divisions like I would prefer. So yes, teams who win worlds to me are world champions. No one is restricted from competing with them.

oh right, i didnt know that. It seems stupid to call an International division. Maybe they just need to restructure age brackets so the whole world uses the same ones, and the age brackets cater for all ages of seniors at worlds

 

[King]

you get 5 shimmys for that.

that is exactly what i want to happen.