All-Star International Team In Wrong Age Div. At Uca. Whose Responsibility Is It?

[crazyredhead]

If I go to China and break a law that I didn't know existed because of the language barrier, who's fault is it?

I think that is my answer.

IMO yours. I think if I was travelling so far to another country I would try my best to learn the do's and dont's. Just like it is the coaches responsibitly to learn the rules of the competition.

 

[King]

Here is the dilemma. EP's are in the habit of pleasing customers. Their #1 goal is to make sure they grow and make their competition bigger. If NOT enforcing rules allows more teams to come, even though we grumble about it they will continue to not enforce rules. If you have ever gotten upset at a legality being called at a main competition but NOT at a smaller one, that is why. The smaller competition doesn't want to lose your business because they called you for that back flipping basket in level 3.

Solution that fixes all this? All USASF staff is in charge of calling all legalities. The EP's have no part or say in what is called. BAM. Solved. No one cant get mad at the competition then.

 

[SarahS]

Here is the dilemma. EP's are in the habit of pleasing customers. Their #1 goal is to make sure they grow and make their competition bigger. If NOT enforcing rules allows more teams to come, even though we grumble about it they will continue to not enforce rules. If you have ever gotten upset at a legality being called at a main competition but NOT at a smaller one, that is why. The smaller competition doesn't want to lose your business because they called you for that back flipping basket in level 3.

Solution that fixes all this? All USASF staff is in charge of calling all legalities. The EP's have no part or say in what is called. BAM. Solved. No one can get mad at the competition then.

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Can USASF come up with a judging curriculum/certification program, then, at a minimum, require all legalities judges be USASF certified at sanctioned events? That seems like it would be achievable in the short term, possibly? That is, of course, if a judging certification program/process has been discussed in the past (has it not? It seems like something that *should* have been discussed.)

 

[King]

Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Can USASF come up with a judging curriculum/certification program, then, at a minimum, require all legalities judges be USASF certified at sanctioned events? That seems like it would be achievable in the short term, possibly? That is, of course, if a judging certification program/process has been discussed in the past (has it not? It seems like something that *should* have been discussed.)

Here is the dynamic. EP's think the advantages they have over other EP's is how they enforce the rules, their scoresheet, their out of bounds, their music policy, their everything about what happens on the mat. To them if they allow people to compete how they want they will keep coming back to their event.

Well, that is just stupid. No one goes to basketball tournaments because they don't enforce double dribbles and have 4 points. (I was about to write 9 examples from all these other sports... but just get the gist to save time).

The way it SHOULD work is that what happens on the mat itself is done the same everywhere. Same rule enforcement, same scoresheet, same out of bounds, same mat sizes with the SAME grid lines. Everything ELSE (the production value, the lights, the extra stuffed animals you can buy, all the dip-n-dots, the hotels, food, the announcer... please get my drift again to save typing 18 other things) is how a competition separates itself.

 

[SarahS]

Here is the dynamic. EP's think the advantages they have over other EP's is how they enforce the rules, their scoresheet, their out of bounds, their music policy, their everything about what happens on the mat. To them if they allow people to compete how they want they will keep coming back to their event.

Well, that is just stupid. No one goes to basketball tournaments because they don't enforce double dribbles and have 4 points. (I was about to write 9 examples from all these other sports... but just get the gist to save time).

The way it SHOULD work is that what happens on the mat itself is done the same everywhere. Same rule enforcement, same scoresheet, same out of bounds, same mat sizes with the SAME grid lines. Everything ELSE (the production value, the lights, the extra stuffed animals you can buy, all the dip-n-dots, the hotels, food, the announcer... please get my drift again to save typing 18 other things) is how a competition separates itself.

Right, and to stretch your analogy, there is a central certification authority and process in place for basketball referees: USA Basketball: 2011-12 USA Basketball Officials Program

USASF clearly doesn't have control over EPs in any aspect except one: bids to worlds. Can USASF not, at the very least, require USASF-certified judges for bid-awarding competitions?

 

[cheermommaRN]

The way it SHOULD work is that what happens on the mat itself is done the same everywhere. Same rule enforcement, same scoresheet, same out of bounds, same mat sizes with the SAME grid lines. Everything ELSE (the production value, the lights, the extra stuffed animals you can buy, all the dip-n-dots, the hotels, food, the announcer... please get my drift again to save typing 18 other things) is how a competition separates itself.

I would shimmy this 1000 times if I could! This would a big first step in legitimizing the industry as a whole. Name any other sport where the "home team" or event producer gets to establish the rules (and then enforce them or not as they deem fit). There should be a USASF representative on site to make sure the standard rules are being adhered to.
In this case I wonder if it was a discrepancy in rules between their country and USASF. Did they think that by having all the smaller kids and one big one that it would lower their "average" age to mini division? This is how it is done in the dance world, if they think of cheer as "dance" it would explain part of the problem. I doubt the team was trying to purposely be in the wrong division and I can only imagine the disappointment the kids felt when they were disqualified the next day.

 

[scottish_cheerleader]

being international isnt an excuse! we compete with completely different age divisions from the states and i still know what divisions i should put my kids in.
id say this was pretty clear...
http://uca.varsity.com/docs/ntls/12/iasc/12_ASDivisions.pdf

 

[marissa.d]

being international isnt an excuse! we compete with completely different age divisions from the states and i still know what divisions i should put my kids in.
id say this was pretty clear...
http://uca.varsity.com/docs/ntls/12/iasc/12_ASDivisions.pdf

not saying i don't agree (because i believe the team at fault also), but this team wass from Colombia, so there may have been a language barrier, as opposed to just an accent difference ;)

 

[scottish_cheerleader]

not saying i don't agree (because i believe the team at fault also), but this team wass from Colombia, so there may have been a language barrier, as opposed to just an accent difference ;)

yes but we have many teams here that compete in france/germany/holland as much as i tried hard in highschool french classes im by no means fluent. (although i have found numbers and general words such as age, years etc are generally known especially when written numerically) google chrome is a wonderful thing, if the page comes up in a different language we just have it translated to english

it costs us a FORTUNE to travel to compete so i do everything to make sure my kids have the best experience

 

[marissa.d]

yes but we have many teams here that compete in france/germany/holland as much as i tried hard in highschool french classes im by no means fluent. (although i have found numbers and general words such as age, years etc are generally known especially when written numerically) google chrome is a wonderful thing, if the page comes up in a different language we just have it translated to english

it costs us a FORTUNE to travel to compete so i do everything to make sure my kids have the best experience

oh i completely agree, i was just pointing it out!

 

[kristenthegreat]

I would shimmy this 1000 times if I could! This would a big first step in legitimizing the industry as a whole. Name any other sport where the "home team" or event producer gets to establish the rules (and then enforce them or not as they deem fit). There should be a USASF representative on site to make sure the standard rules are being adhered to.
In this case I wonder if it was a discrepancy in rules between their country and USASF. Did they think that by having all the smaller kids and one big one that it would lower their "average" age to mini division? This is how it is done in the dance world, if they think of cheer as "dance" it would explain part of the problem. I doubt the team was trying to purposely be in the wrong division and I can only imagine the disappointment the kids felt when they were disqualified the next day.

Didn't think of that. That was a problem with me being with older girls for comp dance- I was so much younger so I brought the age group down..it's entirely possible they thought it worked that way.

 

[KikiD22]

Didn't think of that. That was a problem with me being with older girls for comp dance- I was so much younger so I brought the age group down..it's entirely possible they thought it worked that way.

I actually thought of that as well, thinking that may have been where the confusion was, and someone brought it up on the discussion on my Facebook page. But, having seen that team in person, there is no way that the average age could have even been 8.

 

[BlueCat]

Now here is what we've been debating: Whose responsibility would it have been to prevent this from happening?

The coach of the team. It would have been smart of the EP to have double checked this ahead of time, but ultimately, it is the responsibility of the coach and/or whoever from their program registered the team.

 

[Xtremegirls:)]

hmmm I looked at the video on Varsity and it has them listed under junior 1? did they move them to the correct divison. You may have mentioned it above and I just didnt see. But I have to agree with scottish_cheerleader being international is not an excuse anymore with technology these days. They should have known ahead of time that they were traveling to a comp in a country where they don't speak the same language and should have been extra careful and double checked everything. If they claim that nobody speaks English there is a grand thing called an online translator.
I think EP's that decide to go international need to start being a lot more careful and also double checking so all of this nonsense stops.

 

[KikiD22]

hmmm I looked at the video on Varsity and it has them listed under junior 1? did they move them to the correct divison. You may have mentioned it above and I just didnt see. But I have to agree with scottish_cheerleader being international is not an excuse anymore with technology these days. They should have known ahead of time that they were traveling to a comp in a country where they don't speak the same language and should have been extra careful and double checked everything. If they claim that nobody speaks English there is a grand thing called an online translator.
I think EP's that decide to go international need to start being a lot more careful and also double checking so all of this nonsense stops.

I just pulled the video up on Varsity.com, and they still show up as Mini 1. Where did you see Junior 1?

However, I just noticed that the standings have been updated since yesterday as well. I personally went and checked the standings before I started this thread to double-check that UCA didn't move them to the appropriate division, and they weren't listed anywhere. Now, they have actually popped up in the Small Youth Small Gym "B" Level 1 standings in last place. Interesting...