All-Star International Unfairness

[ztaprincess]

Y'know, not all of us were celebrating when Bangkok won just because they were an international team. Actually most of us thought it was bull s***.

ztaprincess I usually agree with a lot of what you say, but I honestly feel that on this issue you are taking a very handline stance on something you cannot possibly understand fully unless you spent a few seasons outside the US. I cordially invite you to spend your summer with me, which is our competitive season. Come experience Allstar cheer in Australia and then tell us how we can be better and raise our standards so US teams aren't disadvantaged by international division rules. International athletes are only playing by the rules we have been given, I have never called up the USASf and asked for a more lax division so I could win.

I don't think it is the International teams going to the USASF wanting an easier way to win at all and I actually love seeing the non-US teams grow over the years. I think that it is the USASF pushing for it is be easier for them, which is why they allowed what happened last year to happen because if it were a US team that team would have been disqualified. I am in no way blaming other countries for this, my issue is 100% with the USASF. I am sorry if it came off like I was putting blame in the international community that was not my intention. What the USASF has been doing with these divisions over the past few season frustrates me so I have a very passionate opinion on it.

 

[Aussiekat]

ztaprincess At least we're both passionate about the same thing, kinda ;) Offer still stands to visit Australia if you're bored over summer, our kids adore Americans because you come from the land of cheer!

 

[kristenthegreat]

ztaprincess At least we're both passionate about the same thing, kinda ;) Offer still stands to visit Australia if you're bored over summer, our kids adore Americans because you come from the land of cheer!

Can I come too? Once somebody in my family wins the mega millions and I get my share ;)

 

[scottish_cheerleader]

Can I come too? Once somebody in my family wins the mega millions and I get my share ;)

we may not have the sunshine australia has... but anyone is welcome to come to bonnie scotland! we have cheer people over all the time! this summer i had britni and debbie love.. the sweetest people ever! we've had people from world cup, top gun, tiger elte, pace.. so all are welcome any time!!!

 

[TheUltimateFan]

As long as the USASF allows the US teams to enter the division it is going to happen because there is no other division to compete the athletes over 18. If the USASF would say no more US teams in these divisions and then add Open divisions just for US teams it would be better, but the way it is now all the recent rules for these divisions (minus the one being debated) has been in favor of non-US teams. They have limited US teams from playing the game by only allowing 3 to move on to finals when others deserve that 4th place trophy over a team that barely has squad tucks.


I agree that it should have been like that, but clearly the board didn't think out their decisions very well. Maybe Les and the rules committee will make that change.

This one is so awkward. The U.S. is part of the International community, so we should be represented in that competition. But how do you separate the U.S. teams that truly must compete as International due to the make-up of their program, from those that throw together an International team just because it is another or a better chance at a Worlds' bid?

While I'm not at all in favor of limiting the number of teams that move to finals for the U.S., what other choice is there to keep the U.S. teams (for now) from dominating the list that goes to finals?

Why not make it more like the Olympics - only one team from each country advances to finals? Levels the playing field, discourages U.S. programs that are throwing these teams together just for a bid. Yet they still can spend their money if their goal is just to go to Worlds, even knowing they likely won't be in Finals.

Changing the age grid will just eliminate true International competition - these teams have been telling us for years that they use athletes from all ages. If USASF makes them go 17+ they will just move their alliegance to the European international competition. We can't dictate change in other cultures/countries according to what happens in ours.

 

[Diamondlifex2]

IMO all who have posted here have valid points and situations. I see and understand the issues for the US, mostly because I'm here . But I read thru this thread I can see and understand the issues for other Countries. And most here agree rules should be the same across the country. IMO the only one missing the point is the USASF, for making a drastic change to the rule. I agree with a gradual change in the age grid, from 15 to 16 and then to 17.

 

[Corsicab]

I really like the idea of doing it similar to the Olympics with only one team per country!

As far as the age grid goes, if it MUST be changed (I'm not convinced it must) then do it gradually so the people who are currently participating can be grandfathered in.

 

[ztaprincess]

They won't do the one team from each country because that is why they have the ICU. I like the idea, but since they already have a competition for that they won't do it.

 

[leighhhhhhhh]

Why not just say 'Ok, starting in 2013-2014 (because Int'l teams usually apply their bids to the following worlds since they get them on a diff schedule than we do), we will be moving the Int'l division age up to 15? Then in two years make it 17? Give people both in the US and abroad time to adjust and plan?

This IMO will only put off the inevitable. It may ease the blow yes, but the culture of international countries simply does not have the capacity to field as many senior team 17+ as they're are now at worlds standard, be it now or in 5 years.

I think 15 is more than a satisfactory age (I am most definitely smaller than most 15 year olds at my gym and I'm nearly 21) for IO(C)5. And we have IO(C)6 for those that wish to compete on older teams and this has proven to work for many years without a major problem.

And what makes you think everyone will stick to these rules? My team originally went over in 2009 to compete just at ICU & decided to enter IO6(17+ rule) last minute. We had 14yr olds on the team. We made this clear to the judges before competing but never got deducted & came home with 3rd place.

 

[lucyemma]

So I think that there are a few ways of looking at this frm different perspectives and I can understand many of the views on here.

Firstly, I do see the issue of having 30 year olds competing with 14 year olds in a single division, it isn't ideal for a number of reasons which I'm pretty sure have been covered on the fierceboards.

Secondly, I do not agree with having a different rule for the US and the rest of the world. At the end of the day it is an international division and all countires should be represented fairly. It doesn't make any sense for the US to be put at a disadvantage because international teams are paying $1000's to come over to the USA..and not even get to compete against the USA who are clearly the front runners? They may as well just attend European competitions or whatever in their local countries.

As someone from the United Kingdom, I see that changing the age in a couple of years to 17+ for international divisions..will kill off the international division for 90% of the international teams. I'm not sure if many of the people on here are aware-but in the UK we follow the IASF guidelines which we follow the club teams lower age but not the upper age. So athletes in senior compete over here like say a small senior team would over there except there is no upper age limit. If you're looking at an allgirl team then generally the USUAL (not speaking for every team) ages would range from 13-20 (some are 12 some are 20+) but you will find the most common age is probably 15/16/17. When they are awarded bids, they compete as a club team and can have 36- as they will compete with the same team all season. Then when they get to worlds, it is already limited to 24 members and all must be 14+ (this cuts out the oungest in the team already)

Now imagine taking a team of lets say WCSS, the same scenario, , they compete as a team for the whole season, ther most common ages will probably also be 15/16/17, now imagine ONLY taking the seniors from that team-could you win an inteernational division with that few members left on a team?

Ultimately, the rest of the world will never be on parr with the USA in terms of being able to recruit numbers. In the UK with the exception of say 5 teams, the rest take what they have, they can't pick and choose based on skills as there simply aren't enough cheerleaders over here.

IMO they should change the divisions to INTERNATIONAL AG/COED and International OPEN AG/COED. Keep the international teams as 14+ and int'l open as 17+.That way, adults wouldn't need to compete with younger members if gym's don't want to and iternational teams could still compete there.

Just my opinion and a perspective from what a lot of UK cheerleaders are feeling on the matter.

 

[ztaprincess]

And what makes you think everyone will stick to these rules? My team originally went over in 2009 to compete just at ICU & decided to enter IO6(17+ rule) last minute. We had 14yr olds on the team. We made this clear to the judges before competing but never got deducted & came home with 3rd place.

Wow, this is the first that I am hearing about this. This is awful and just makes a joke out of the rules (blaming the USASF not you because you were honest to them about it). Seriously I lose more and more faith in the USASF every day.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Not weighing in with my opinion at all, but tossing this out as something to think about.... What's the intent of the rule... To be "fair" or "equal", and are those two things mutually inclusive or not?

 

[watchamacallit]

It's totally unfair for teams outside the US to have different rules and ages. If teams from Australia, Japan, Canada etc... want to be apart of our sport they need to become as advanced as we are, we can't say "oh you don't have enough tumbling? It's okay you still make finals" They're so many US teams in the international division who work hard all year with the correct age range and difficulty that you should have in this division who go to worlds spend all that money getting there only to be told sorry only 3 us teams can make it.. But the team from London who only has tucks and maybe 1 full will make finals... Ridiculous. International Divison Finals at Worlds should be the TOP 10 from all countries per division not 3 per country. Make it fair to those who actually deserve to make finals. It will also make the international Divison more exciting to watch. instead of already knowing who's going to win due to lack of competition.

BTW my examples were not of a specific team (aka London) I was just using a country for an example :)

there's also "so many teams" in the international division other than the US who work hard all year with the correct age range. Just because some people might think that USASF is "more lenient" towards the Internationals teams, doesn't mean we actually don't try to be the best when we practice and perform. Don't even get me started about the money issue. Try being a Canadian athlete who spends at least $1300 to get to the worlds, have just an at-large bid, partial paid if you're lucky since we don't/cant get full paid bids, ON TOP of what you had to pay to get to the bid competition (chances are if you are from middleofnowhere, Canada you'd spend another $800 to go to Ontario or BC to get your bid because those are the only two places that I know of that gives Canadian bids) added on to your monthly fees at the gym...only to get to worlds and find yourself as the 4th place Canadian team so you don't make it to the finals...Just saying, there's actually some International teams that feel the same pain too..

as for your suggestion that International Division Finals should be TOP 10 from all countries? I believe that already exist.. I'm not sure about the exact number but I believe the division is called EVERY OTHER DIVISION AT WORLDS. IMO, the International Division is the only place where Non-US teams gets to showcase to the world what they can do... may it be better or worst than the US teams that they are competing with.. it doesn't matter and we really don't care much. We just want to be recognized for the skills that we do have and be rewarded for getting those skills even if they are not up to par with the US teams. The only vibe that I got from this specific post is that International teams don't have a place in Worlds final unless they can keep up with the US team which is... "RIDICULOUS"

As for the comment about giving the globes to the "team who cheated", coming from an athlete on the team that competed against them, I also felt that it was unfair for those International teams who did make it to the finals fair and square and those who followed the rules word by word, so it can't just be said that the USASF is doing everything to appease the International teams because we've been victims too by this "appeasing"

 

[coachrah]

I really like the idea of doing it similar to the Olympics with only one team per country!

As far as the age grid goes, if it MUST be changed (I'm not convinced it must) then do it gradually so the people who are currently participating can be grandfathered in.

Isn't USA Cheer's teams the Olympic intention? Don't they represent the ICU? I thought the chain of governance was USA Cheer governs all things cheer in the United States which means they will govern USASF. Do they have a cheer on their scoresheet? Use of poms and signs? I thought this format made them a sideline activity...connect the inconsistencies... but this is what happens when one corporation tries to call the same skill set both an activity in one breath and a sport in another.When you put down the poms and signs, but keep the same skills on a scoresheet...the only thing changed is your purpose. Way to capture the entire market through language strategy.

 

[Aussiekat]

Can I come too? Once somebody in my family wins the mega millions and I get my share ;)

I hope your family won the mega millions and can fly you down here for a visit and then take me back to NYC so we can start our epic Manhattan cheer gym of awesomeness.