All-Star Is It The Judges Fault That There Is No Change At The Top

[Coach Troy]

Yes thank you!!!! :)

 

[tellithowitis]

Interesting Topic. I feel ICE Lightning was scored very low in stunts. I mean, they competed FIVE Double Ups. They are definitely a household name that everyone knows, but not a Cheer Athletics or a California. I think they were scored low by crowd appeal.

 

[AllyCat]

I've kinda read a bit of this and from what I've gotten from it and my thoughts and opion is that these big name teams created a big name for themselves and won in the past based on there skill and technique. There big in the cheer indusrty as a whole, but when your back in your home town and compeat with the same people all year untill travel comps some of the 'no name' gym are considered the big ones. Like where Im from in b.c canada we compeate with south elite, NV all year and were the 3big programs where I live. South Elite and my progtram (VAS) were against eachother all year and score sheet wise, VAS were never that far behind, and if I'm not mistaken even beat them at a copm right before worlds. South elite ended up with silver where VAS came 14th I think....Tho they hit the rutine of there lives. Like alot of people says it comes down to technic and it dose but its also owning the stage, Cali messes up but they dont show it on there face they simply smile right through it as if it never happends. Technic and skill and all that is huge on the score sheet but so is having energy witch South is amazing at. The big name gyms know how to put on a show and draw the crowed in with there stunts but they keep there attention during transitions as well. Also the big name gyms have alot more money than smaller gyms so that they can bring in guests like Debbie Love or Christian Muntz (i think thats his last name..) to help learn better technique. Not say that they all do, but it deffantly helps them when the coaches and owners have been doing its for 15+years and know what there talking about. A team with 10yrs experiance at worlds will ALMOST always beat a team with only 2 or 3... its a learning pricess and once a team clicks and gets it they'll be able to hang with the 'big boys'

 

[PullandPray23]

the only thing that truly baffles me if when the scores coming out the milkhouse are like maxing 240.00 and the scores coming outta jostens are like starting at 240.00

 

[CCCBeBad]

Well thanks for being mean.....maybe instead you could read all the posts not just the one you want to use to attack someone's person instead of thier argument.
Great coaches make great teams, smart coaches know the scoring system and adapt but neither of those things insures you will capture the judges choice it just means you will be in a certain range

My argument is that after all of that we are left with an opinion that hasn't changed in a decade.
Next time read.....

Well coach troy obviously you should take your own advice, because before I ever reply I read the forum from beginning to end, reason why it says in my first sentence "I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt" implying I read the entire thread..... I understand your argument and was all about it until someone used the example of South Elite, it proved the argument was weak cause in no case did I have them winning, they just did not have the over all routine, and then you went and commented on a topic of if Victor or Brad walked into any gym across the nation it wouldnt be successful.... once again making your argument weak! If you would have stuck to the facts of worlds judges, how they are or are not rotated, how the scoring is subjective and not a true guideline exist I was all for ya but you didnt! You let other people turn your argument around and ruin your stance.... sorry thats just the truth.

 

[BlueCat]

the only thing that truly baffles me if when the scores coming out the milkhouse are like maxing 240.00 and the scores coming outta jostens are like starting at 240.00

The scores are not designed to be compared between divisions. The judges are using their ranges to compare within the specific division they are judging. Also, the scoresheets are completely different from division to division. That is at least part of the reason why there is no Grand Champion title awarded.

 

[CheerMomNTx]

I agree..It's worlds and consistency should be rewarded.

Here's another question...Had scoring been continuous over the two days, were the Panthers that much better than the other 3 teams who all nailed their routines and would the medalists been different?

Now from what I saw, the Panthers were great on day 2 and certainly distinguished themselves but day 1 they made costly mistakes so they didn't have a consistent weekend while a team like the Suns who just missed medaling were perfect on both days and were actually even better on day 2.

From the times I have seen Panthers and the videos of performances over the season, their Day 1 mistakes to me were not consistant with the year they had. I didn't see the first time they hit the mat this season, but Day 1 may have been their worse performance of the season. Just throwing that out there.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

I'm not even going to bother reading everything posted in this thread.
Every single time I see the "only big name teams" win statement, I assume the person is sour about not winning, and I'll continue to do the same with this thread. I don't particularly LIKE seeing a team win with ANY major mistake, but it happens, and it happened because Spirit's routine was disgustingly difficult, their tumbling was executed perfectly, their jumps were executed perfectly, they have perfect motions, generally similar body positions, and they perform the hell out of their routine. I love South Elite, I really do, but stunting was the only category that they excelled at in that division. Yes it's worth a lot, but when scores are so similar, the little things matter, and Spirit's "little things" in their routine allowed for them to make a mistake.
The same thing happened with Senior Elite back in 2010, happened with IOAG this year (talking about 2nd place here), it's happened many times and it will happen again. I have an idea, and this isn't only directed towards Coach Troy for starting this thread. Rather than bitching and complaining that you think bigger gyms are favoured, why don't you check out a scoresheet more thoroughly, evaluate your own skill set more thoroughly, and understand WHY they score higher than you, because in most instances, it's rather clear.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

From the times I have seen Panthers and the videos of performances over the season, their Day 1 mistakes to me were not consistant with the year they had. I didn't see the first time they hit the mat this season, but Day 1 may have been their worse performance of the season. Just throwing that out there.

They did have some mistakes bigger than that of Day 1 at Worlds early in the season, but that doesn't matter at Worlds. I've always wished that consistency became a factor at Worlds. I look at routines between Day 1 and Day 2 (the same team) with, in my eyes, similar mistakes or similar high points and I see that the scores can sometimes vary a LOT. Looking at a few teams, had they hit a perfect routine Day 1 and no changes Day 2 (and another perfect routine), there shouldn't be 4-5 points difference.

 

[CheerMomNTx]

They did have some mistakes bigger than that of Day 1 at Worlds early in the season, but that doesn't matter at Worlds. I've always wished that consistency became a factor at Worlds. I look at routines between Day 1 and Day 2 (the same team) with, in my eyes, similar mistakes or similar high points and I see that the scores can sometimes vary a LOT. Looking at a few teams, had they hit a perfect routine Day 1 and no changes Day 2 (and another perfect routine), there shouldn't be 4-5 points difference.

I am glad they don't combine the Day 1 and Day 2 score. It's like the superbowl, it's all or nothing on that one day. Makes it more exciting!! JMO

 

[MissCongeniality]

The way I look at it is ...we're all human and, therefore, subject to being human. Even the best, most impartial judge in the world has no doubt heard about certain teams "omg they are amazing this year". So then, when he goes to judge that team, it's like the saying "you can't un-ring a bell". So the judges attempt to go in completely impartial and judge what's in front of them, but you can not 100% erase the "hype" that's been heard. Naturally the "big names" and/or "the favorites" get more press time and hype...so Yes, I do kinda get what Coach Troy is saying.

I'd like to say "no way! Judges are amazing! They judge completely from the score sheet. They don't let their emotions get involved". But, I know they're human and aren't perfect.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

I am glad they don't combine the Day 1 and Day 2 score. It's like the superbowl, it's all or nothing on that one day. Makes it more exciting!! JMO

No I don't mean combine the scores, but correct me if I'm wrong, I believe there's a different panel of judges judging the divisions between days? If not, the judges are all kinds of inconsistent, but I think, even with the amount a person has to judge, being aware of how the team did the day before and how they were scored would provide for more consistent scoring over the whole of the weekend.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

the only thing that truly baffles me if when the scores coming out the milkhouse are like maxing 240.00 and the scores coming outta jostens are like starting at 240.00

There's a different set of criteria to maximize your score on the other scoresheets. International divisions heavily favour stunting, so lacking a bit in jump technique or motions or something doesn't negatively effect their score NEARLY as much as the club divisions, however when a team does excel in EVERY aspect (using GT Pink as an example) they get a HUGE score, because not only have they maxed the points they receive from the most heavily weighted area (stunting), they've thrown in a bunch of extra points by being good in the other aspects.
If you look at a club division team that is AMAZING at one thing and just has normal difficulty in others, they don't score quite as high because they are more reliant on the scoring of everything.

 

[xpressjag]

Having judged and coached, I can tell you that all these cheer companies make it completely clear on what the expectations are in regards to the rubric. Varsity and Jam Brands define what you need to hit a certain range, but it is at the judges discretion to what part of the range you will fall in. From my experience the majority of the teams place where they should. Since we do add the human factor, there can be unintentional mistakes that occur during the process. Keep in mind you are in a stressful situation with a company wanting to run on time and coaches wanting 100 comments on what they did wrong/right.

 

[xpressjag]

I am glad they don't combine the Day 1 and Day 2 score. It's like the superbowl, it's all or nothing on that one day. Makes it more exciting!! JMO

I really wish all 2 day events were like this or at least 20-80. I do like the excitement built up on who can hit their routine the 2nd day.