All-Star Major Multi-location Gyms Discussion

[purplecheer]

What do you guys think are the main factors creating the environment of (relatively) rapid gym expansion? The current state was unimaginable when we started over 20 years ago.

Definitely what @dawgshow said. Also how people are commuting more, so there are a few bigger gyms instead of lots of smaller ones. The few bigger gyms also helps to have better World's teams, rather than the athletes being spread out among lots of teams. And just the "keeping up with Susie" mentality that the bigger gyms are "better" so more people go to those so they expand and the smaller gyms close down.

 

[brooks87]

Sooo Rockstar is opening an 11th location.

Crazy right?

 

[AScheer]

What do you guys think are the main factors creating the environment of (relatively) rapid gym expansion? The current state was unimaginable when we started over 20 years ago.

I think it's been a lot of things happening simultaneously. I agree with the one poster that mentions that a lot of gyms are owned by people who may be an awesome coach, but have no business running a business.

I think the industry as it currently is, makes it really hard for new gyms to succeed. (D2 is a start) I'm not saying the old gyms (ie Cheer Athletics, World Cup, Top Gun, CEA, etc) had it easy when they started either, but it was definitely a different kind of struggle. The industry grew at the same time that these large gyms did. Now for a new or small gym to get in, it's near impossible to compete with the large gyms, making the athlete drive to the big gyms a more popular thing. XX gym is famous, XX gym is bigger, therefore XX gym must be better.

I think the big bid competitions have played part in this as well. If your gym isn't seeking out these bids or winning these bids, then parents and kids jump ship for somewhere that will.

I think we have to acknowledge that social media and the internet also have a part in this. Back in the day, you were at the gym that was close to your house. You saw the other teams at competitions, and if you were lucky you saw the big teams at Cheersport, UCA and NCA. There wasn't as much exposure. You couldn't log into youtube, facebook, or any social media app and see daily/weekly routine changes. We didn't know what we didn't know. Now a simple google search will show all of the gyms in your area, with a rundown of their "national champion" teams. I think society as a whole (of course not everyone) has the mindset that their child is the best and deserves to be at the best. The Suzie tick tock video was funny because it was true. If the coach doesn't think their child is the best, then they'll find a coach/gym that does. I think this entitlement is an issue in all youth sports, not just cheer. It seems new articles from college coaches pop up everyday on how the kids have changed.

Again I think its lots of things happening at once that have created the culture of the big gym takeover. I'm sure I'm leaving out many other factors but those are the ones that came to my head.

 

[amy1k]

I think the big bid competitions have played part in this as well. If your gym isn't seeking out these bids or winning these bids, then parents and kids jump ship for somewhere that will.

*snipped for space*

I would GLADLY switch my daughter to a gym that didn't bid chase and still put together competitive teams. I'm fine going to Summit with an amazing team that gets a bid at one of the few opportunities...but I'm exhausted financially and mentally by the idea that we need to travel to country in hopes to get a bid. All of our gym options do the same...as a matter of fact, they seem to be trying to one-up the bid opportunities. My FANTASY is a big-named gym coming in and offering parents a choice for where they'd like to spend their money. I'd prefer spending my money at the gym my daughter is part of, but bid chasing is swallowing up my funds. I can no longer afford classes or private lessons or other purchases, because my money goes to travel. I feel like that is short-sighted on the part of our local gyms. When I hear parents from big-name programs say they get to VOTE on things like Summit? Yeah. I'd like that very much. I have ZERO interest flying to Orlando for UCA (gyms here are adding it more and more) with the hopes of ANOTHER Orlando trip a month later. My money tree is depleted. I know it's no guarantee of that ending, but that's my big-gym expansion fantasy. :(

Edited to add: my daughter ages out in three years. I'm going to, most likely, hold my breath and push through. I don't see how cheer can survive in our area, though, if this doesn't change. I see people depleting their savings in order to keep up the facade of this cheer life and that can't be maintained indefinitely.

 

[onecheermom]

I would GLADLY switch my daughter to a gym that didn't bid chase and still put together competitive teams. I'm fine going to Summit with an amazing team that gets a bid at one of the few opportunities...but I'm exhausted financially and mentally by the idea that we need to travel to country in hopes to get a bid. All of our gym options do the same...as a matter of fact, they seem to be trying to one-up the bid opportunities. My FANTASY is a big-named gym coming in and offering parents a choice for where they'd like to spend their money. I'd prefer spending my money at the gym my daughter is part of, but bid chasing is swallowing up my funds. I can no longer afford classes or private lessons or other purchases, because my money goes to travel. I feel like that is short-sided on the part of our local gyms. When I hear parents from big-name programs say they get to VOTE on things like Summit? Yeah. I'd like that very much. I have ZERO interest flying to Orlando for UCA (gyms here are adding it more and more) with the hopes of ANOTHER Orlando trip a month later. My money tree is depleted. I know it's no guarantee of that ending, but that's my big-gym expansion fantasy. :(

Edited to add: my daughter ages out in three years. I'm going to, most likely, hold my breath and push through. I don't see how cheer can survive in our area, though, if this doesn't change. I see people depleting their savings in order to keep up the facade of this cheer life and that can't be maintained indefinitely.

Have to completely agree with you on this one.. Traveling from the PNW to Orlando 2x a year for the last 5 years and then traveling to Cali and Vegas,with a hope of Orlando this year... (and lets not forget Portland 2x) My money tree has died a slow painful death. If cheer is going to survive in our area things will have to change..

 

[amy1k]

Have to completely agree with you on this one.. Traveling from the PNW to Orlando 2x a year for the last 5 years and then traveling to Cali and Vegas,with a hope of Orlando this year... (and lets not forget Portland 2x) My money tree has died a slow painful death. If cheer is going to survive in our area things will have to change..

Also, in my opinion this is ALL being forced into existence by Susie's mom. Susie's mom supports the gyms currently because she's not arrived at REALITY.

Anyway. #endrant. *blush*

 

[SL&AM]

I would GLADLY switch my daughter to a gym that didn't bid chase and still put together competitive teams. I'm fine going to Summit with an amazing team that gets a bid at one of the few opportunities...but I'm exhausted financially and mentally by the idea that we need to travel to country in hopes to get a bid. All of our gym options do the same...as a matter of fact, they seem to be trying to one-up the bid opportunities. My FANTASY is a big-named gym coming in and offering parents a choice for where they'd like to spend their money. I'd prefer spending my money at the gym my daughter is part of, but bid chasing is swallowing up my funds. I can no longer afford classes or private lessons or other purchases, because my money goes to travel. I feel like that is short-sided on the part of our local gyms. When I hear parents from big-name programs say they get to VOTE on things like Summit? Yeah. I'd like that very much. I have ZERO interest flying to Orlando for UCA (gyms here are adding it more and more) with the hopes of ANOTHER Orlando trip a month later. My money tree is depleted. I know it's no guarantee of that ending, but that's my big-gym expansion fantasy. :(

Edited to add: my daughter ages out in three years. I'm going to, most likely, hold my breath and push through. I don't see how cheer can survive in our area, though, if this doesn't change. I see people depleting their savings in order to keep up the facade of this cheer life and that can't be maintained indefinitely.

I can't shimmie this enough! Even though we are 'local' to Orlando, the idea of the Summit and World's is nice but not end all be all. The idea of bid chasing makes me cringe and I'm hoping for changes over the next few years so that by the time my CP gets Summit eligible (since Mini's don't go) it won't be such a push. I cringe for those having to fly all over the country just to get a bid to another comp they have to fly too. Ick!

 

[BlueCat]

I would agree that the "bid chase" phenomenon plays a role in this transformation of the industry. We (CA) have benefitted greatly from it - perhaps more than anyone outside of Memphis. I'm not entirely sure that having this type of event is in the long-term best interest of the industry, however.

I fear that the Summit has taken that phenomenon from just the top 3% of teams (Worlds) and spread it throughout most of the rest of the divisions. We tried to resist it at first and just flat out turned down Summit bids the first season. However, we feel enormous pressure from the parents/customers to "treat everyone like the Worlds teams" assuming that automatically means good things for them. We were potentially losing athletes to gyms that were billing themselves as "Summit Gyms". Ultimately, we are in business to provide the service that our athletes and parents want, so we now cater a large part of our season around going for bids.

In large part due to the competitive nature of getting those bids, it affects our team selection. In order to "keep up" with other programs at every level, you are essentially forced to keep upping your standards for making a particular level. Soon, everyone does it until you have essentially moved every athlete in the country down a level or two. (Except for the often desperate gyms who will offer to put Suzy on a higher level team if they just switch to their gym.) Perhaps that is good for some of the athletes, but that is an unintended consequence.

It also affects our selection of locations for new gyms. Opening a gym across town simply creates more competition for those local bid opportunities. That isn't to say that we won't ever open gyms in our same region, but Summit/Worlds put a "spread out" pressure on your expansion.

I think Pandora's Box is already wide open on this however. Suggest to a parent that it may not serve their athletes' best interests to build their season around getting a Summit bid and all they hear is "you don't care about my child as much as your Worlds teams."

 

[stcchamp]

Sooo Rockstar is opening an 11th location.

In Ohio, most likely bc the "clue" on Twitter is exactly the same...

 

[UCFKnights07]

Soon, everyone does it until you have essentially moved everyone in the country down a level or two. Perhaps that is for the good of the athletes, but that is an unintended consequence.

Do you find yourself putting athletes you wish could be put on a level 5 team for certain reasons, but instead on lower levels in order to stay competitive.
scenario you have an extremely strong base or flyer, but since they dont have a running double or some form of good running tumbling you move them down to level 4.

 

[SL&AM]

I would agree that the "bid chase" phenomenon plays a role in this transformation of the industry. We (CA) have benefitted greatly from it - perhaps more than anyone outside of Memphis. I'm not entirely sure that having this type of event is in the long-term best interest of the industry, however.

I fear that the Summit has taken that phenomenon from just the top 3% of teams (Worlds) and spread it throughout most of the rest of the divisions. We tried to resist it at first and just flat out turned down Summit bids the first season. However, we feel enormous pressure from the parents/customers to "treat everyone like the Worlds teams" assuming that automatically means good things for them. We were potentially losing athletes to gyms that were billing themselves as "Summit Gyms". Ultimately, we are in business to provide the service that our athletes and parents want, so we now cater a large part of our season around going for bids.

In large part due to the competitive nature of getting those bids, it affects our team selection. In order to "keep up" with other programs at every level, you are essentially forced to keep upping your standards for making a particular level. Soon, everyone does it until you have essentially moved every athlete in the country down a level or two. (Except for the often desperate gyms who will offer to put Suzy on a higher level team if they just switch to their gym.) Perhaps that is for the good of the athletes, but that is an unintended consequence.

It also affects our selection of locations for new gyms. Opening a gym across town simply creates more competition for those local bid opportunities. That isn't to say that we won't ever open gyms in our same region, but Summit/Worlds put a "spread out" pressure on your expansion.

I think Pandora's Box is already wide open on this however. Suggest to a parent that it may not serve their athletes' best interests to build their season around getting a Summit bid and all they hear is "you don't care about my child as much as your Worlds teams."

@BlueCat I can't say I'm surprised to hear that the bigger gyms are getting just as much, if not more, parent heat than the smaller gyms because when you think big gym, of course, people automatically assume greatness. That said, I'm curious if you think the Summit will lead to a higher rate of athlete burn-out than what is already commonly expected in the sport? When athletes make a World's caliber team they know that it's coming with a laundry list of sacrifices and I'd guess even larger ones for teams that everyone constantly looks to to be the best (your program and a handful of others). However, it seems like, parents are placing those same pressures and sacrifice worthy seasons onto the shoulders of younger kids who likely don't even realize what they're going to have to give up at the time. Curious on your thoughts?

 

[AScheer]

I would agree that the "bid chase" phenomenon plays a role in this transformation of the industry. We (CA) have benefitted greatly from it - perhaps more than anyone outside of Memphis. I'm not entirely sure that having this type of event is in the long-term best interest of the industry, however.

I fear that the Summit has taken that phenomenon from just the top 3% of teams (Worlds) and spread it throughout most of the rest of the divisions. We tried to resist it at first and just flat out turned down Summit bids the first season. However, we feel enormous pressure from the parents/customers to "treat everyone like the Worlds teams" assuming that automatically means good things for them. We were potentially losing athletes to gyms that were billing themselves as "Summit Gyms". Ultimately, we are in business to provide the service that our athletes and parents want, so we now cater a large part of our season around going for bids.

In large part due to the competitive nature of getting those bids, it affects our team selection. In order to "keep up" with other programs at every level, you are essentially forced to keep upping your standards for making a particular level. Soon, everyone does it until you have essentially moved every athlete in the country down a level or two. (Except for the often desperate gyms who will offer to put Suzy on a higher level team if they just switch to their gym.) Perhaps that is for the good of the athletes, but that is an unintended consequence.

It also affects our selection of locations for new gyms. Opening a gym across town simply creates more competition for those local bid opportunities. That isn't to say that we won't ever open gyms in our same region, but Summit/Worlds put a "spread out" pressure on your expansion.

I think Pandora's Box is already wide open on this however. Suggest to a parent that it may not serve their athletes' best interests to build their season around getting a Summit bid and all they hear is "you don't care about my child as much as your Worlds teams."

Yes. It's like the parents are teenagers who think they know best and need to be told no. The only problem is that puts the gym in the position to parent the parents and we all know that won't work. Gyms should educate parents and the parents should realize the owners of said gym know more about the industry and what's best as a whole. Instead most parents act like an 18 year old with a credit card and freedom, they are going to do what they want and learn the hard way. If the gym says no, they'll take their money elsewhere instead of listening. The gym sort of can't win. Continue to "keep up with the Jones" or stop the madness and lose business. Then you have the double edged sword of that same mom who demanded chasing bids coming to you 4 years later to pull her child because they can't afford it anymore. It's like the wheel never stops spinning, as soon as a parent realizes what they gotten into and are ready to change their thoughts, another 2 new parents are getting on the wheel.

ETA... not all parents are like this of course! Just the loudest.

 

[BlueCat]

@BlueCat I can't say I'm surprised to hear that the bigger gyms are getting just as much, if not more, parent heat than the smaller gyms because when you think big gym, of course, people automatically assume greatness. That said, I'm curious if you think the Summit will lead to a higher rate of athlete burn-out than what is already commonly expected in the sport? When athletes make a World's caliber team they know that it's coming with a laundry list of sacrifices and I'd guess even larger ones for teams that everyone constantly looks to to be the best (your program and a handful of others). However, it seems like, parents are placing those same pressures and sacrifice worthy seasons onto the shoulders of younger kids who likely don't even realize what they're going to have to give up at the time. Curious on your thoughts?

Well, I'm certainly not asking for (nor expecting) sympathy for the pressures we are under, just merely stating my perspective. We also are fortunate to no longer have many of the day-to-day pressures that most gyms feel.

To your point, I do think that Summit will have some negative effects on the athletes. They could burn out on the sport because of the greatly shortened off-season, burned out on the Mouse House well before they get Worlds age, or burned out of money from annual flights to Orlando.

I really believe that the biggest negative effects, however, are on the independent (not Varsity) event producers. They are getting killed by Summit and that is a potentially devastating loss for the industry. I understand the concern for there "only" being 15-20 programs that make up most of the gym business in the US - however, we are in far greater danger of a single entity (Varsity) controlling the entire event side. They put on fantastic events and provide a great service. However, I hate to see them be the only option in the future.

 

[amy1k]

Also, demanding parents will never be satisfied. They'll insist on a bid-winning, competitive team...and then refuse to "attend Summit on level 1 again!" True story. I'd wager that for every Susie's mom who thinks cheerleading is Susie's ticket to fame, there are five other parents who quietly disagree with the status quo, but are afraid to rock the boat. :(

 

[onecheermom]

I am embarrassed by the number of times I read this before it clicked. "New cat paw dot" WHUT?

Any chance the "new cat paw dot" is in Seattle??? :cool:

We could only be this lucky!!!!


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