All-Star Making Scores Easier To Read

[King]

Another example and this one from Worlds. Top 5 for Small Senior (might be day 1):

1. CA - 271.03
2. Cali - 266.7
3. Orange - 255.7
4. CEA - 255.33
5. Texas - 247.33

Would become (out of 300 points):

1. CA - 90.3
2. Cali - 88.9
3. Orange - 85.2
4. CEA - 85.1
5. Texas - 82.4

And now you can even make a comparison between Cheersport and Worlds results. The Semi Limited coed at cheersport did a much better job maxing at the scoresheet than compared to the small senior teams at worlds.

 

[King]

Cheersport Small Senior Results from D2 2011:

1. Orange - 886.6
2. Central Jersey - 875
3. Green Bay Elite - 865
4. Spirit Central - 852.3
5. East Celebrity Elite - 847.7

Would become......

1. Orange - 98.5
2. Central Jersey - 97.2
3. Green Bay Elite - 96.1
4. Spirit Central - 94.7
5. East Celebrity Elite - 94.1

(compare to Worlds percent results)

1. CA - 90.3
2. Cali - 88.9
3. Orange - 85.2
4. CEA - 85.1
5. Texas - 82.4

You can see Worlds is a much stiffer competition where (understandably) it is harder to score high. I just took two of the most different scoresheet results on the planet and made them presentable in the same way. The results didn't change, the way they got the results didn't change, just the final number we see at the end.

It is a percentage, so no EP has to get mad it wasn't a number they came up with (as far as I could find it was the Roman emperor Augustus who invented percents... I don't think he had a specific EP affiliation that I know of). It requires very little thinking to come up with the final result. In fact, I think when you get your scoresheets everything should be presented as it always has for each EP except at the end on the bottom it gives you your percent.

 

[BlueCat]

The only issue I have with that idea is that without universal standards or consistent judging, many folks would use those numbers to compare performances from comp to comp, when the systems aren't currently designed to produce that. They would make potentially false assumptions. (Example: All of the top 5's performances at Cheersport were dramatically better than the performances of any of the Worlds teams.) I think this would promote comparisons between competitions that simply wouldn't be valid.

I do get where you are going. Many people understand that getting 96% of the questions right on a 2nd grade reading test is not necessarily as impressive as getting 94% of the questions right on your Honors Advanced Calculus 4 test at MIT. (just an example - not comparing CS and Worlds this way) However, I cringe at the thought of what people who spend less time on score details than we do would do with this.

IMO, the standards the judges use (and the quality and consistency of the judges themselves) should be what our efforts are focused on. As I have mentioned MANY times (and will continue to do so ad nauseum until things improve) - judging consistency is awful. It is rare that we go to a competition where there isn't at least one elementary mistake made on at least 1 of our teams' scoresheets.

So far this season (bear in mind that this is only from looking at 1 program's scoresheets):
1. A completely blank box on a scoresheet. No score given. This was not caught by the judge, the head judge, or the tabulator.
2. (multiple times) completely out of range scoring. Scores that weren't theoretically possible for the level.
3. Simple addition mistakes.
4. Deductions given, but not actually taken. (NOT warnings - mistakes noted on the deduction sheet that simply weren't counted off for.)
5. Teams within the same division NOT scored by the same judging panel.

I am telling you folks - double check your scores! I get angry when EPs won't let us see other teams' numbers because I have seen how often they can be wrong. If I find this many mistakes on our scoresheets, why should I assume that other teams are being scored correctly? Why should I think that the teams are being scored fairly?

 

[StarshipTrooper]

The only issue I have with that idea is that without universal standards or consistent judging, many folks would use those numbers to compare performances from comp to comp, when the systems aren't currently designed to produce that. They would make potentially false assumptions. (Example: All of the top 5's performances at Cheersport were dramatically better than the performances of any of the Worlds teams.) I think this would promote comparisons between competitions that simply wouldn't be valid.

I do get where you are going. Many people understand that getting 96% of the questions right on a 2nd grade reading test is not necessarily as impressive as getting 94% of the questions right on your Honors Advanced Calculus 4 test at MIT. (just an example - not comparing CS and Worlds this way) However, I cringe at the thought of what people who spend less time on score details than we do would do with this.

IMO, the standards the judges use (and the quality and consistency of the judges themselves) should be what our efforts are focused on. As I have mentioned MANY times (and will continue to do so ad nauseum until things improve) - judging consistency is awful. It is rare that we go to a competition where there isn't at least one elementary mistake made on at least 1 of our teams' scoresheets.

So far this season (bear in mind that this is only from looking at 1 program's scoresheets):
1. A completely blank box on a scoresheet. No score given. This was not caught by the judge, the head judge, or the tabulator.
2. (multiple times) completely out of range scoring. Scores that weren't theoretically possible for the level.
3. Simple addition mistakes.
4. Deductions given, but not actually taken. (NOT warnings - mistakes noted on the deduction sheet that simply weren't counted off for.)
5. Teams within the same division NOT scored by the same judging panel.

I am telling you folks - double check your scores! I get angry when EPs won't let us see other teams' numbers because I have seen how often they can be wrong. If I find this many mistakes on our scoresheets, why should I assume that other teams are being scored correctly? Why should I think that the teams are being scored fairly?

I would think your basic points on accuracy and consistency could be handled pretty easily with the ability of a staff to review the scores and appeal errors before the results are announced. The process I would LOVE to watch would be, say, staffs and judges with score sheets and videos evaluating the judging of the competition and coming to consensus of what the true score should be for each team even if after the competition was over. That would be good for all sides and give the staffs input and the ability to develop confidence in certain judges. I would love for a consensus to evolve around who the best judges are and allow them to do the majority of the judging. I can tell you, I have watched a lot of level 5 cheer, not anything like you guys of course, over the years and what I thought I saw real time, or did not see, is not always true when I see the video. So I'm not saying there are politics or bias/agenda issues, I know there must be human error all the time. That process could and would eventually improve the quality of judging and give the professional staffs input on judging moving forward . I know it probably cannot be done, but at a high profile event like NCA or Worlds, there is the opportunity for the staffs to interact with a chief judge and appeal their case while holding their score sheets and videos of day one after the 1st day, at least one on one to point about potential errors. There is a lot that can be done. But to the OP, yes, great idea if you are living in the world of standardized competitions and score sheets but as was said, I don't think that is the agenda of the EPs. I think it is the agenda of the gyms and athletes.

 

[ACEDAD]

To sum up my positions:

1. I love this idea, kingston and if the EP's won't do it, you should do a conversion after every competition!
2. Reiterate my support of BlueCat 's request to see ALL scoresheets

 

[Cheer Dad]

So far this season (bear in mind that this is only from looking at 1 program's scoresheets):
1. A completely blank box on a scoresheet. No score given. This was not caught by the judge, the head judge, or the tabulator.
2. (multiple times) completely out of range scoring. Scores that weren't theoretically possible for the level.
3. Simple addition mistakes.
4. Deductions given, but not actually taken. (NOT warnings - mistakes noted on the deduction sheet that simply weren't counted off for.)
5. Teams within the same division NOT scored by the same judging panel.

I am telling you folks - double check your scores! I get angry when EPs won't let us see other teams' numbers because I have seen how often they can be wrong. If I find this many mistakes on our scoresheets, why should I assume that other teams are being correctly? Why should I think that the teams are being scored fairly?

Can't comment on items 4 & 5 but our gym has experienced 1-3 this season already and we have only had 2 competitions so far. Think BlueCat has great point with universal / consistent judging being required for this idea to work. Checks and balance could also improve the situation.

 

[King]

Honestly simple computer scoring would fix that. A computer wouldn't allow a score out of range or missing.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

To sum up my positions:

1. I love this idea, kingston and if the EP's won't do it, you should do a conversion after every competition!
2. Reiterate my support of BlueCat 's request to see ALL scoresheets

Agree. But you know, most judged athletic endeavors have a very limited number of athletes being judged at one time. Having 36, uhhh, 30 to judge begs of error and inconsistency. Especially when there could be 500 more teams every 5 minutes. We have to do better.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Honestly simple computer scoring would fix that. A computer wouldn't allow a score out of range or missing.

That seems logical.

 

[KB_Legend]

If you feel like your kids and/or parents need the score to be a percentage of the possible points isn't that something you can just do yourself very easily? You don't necessarily need a Rube Goldberg machine to do simple division...

I am, however, all for every scoresheet being run through a computer to eliminate out of range, missing score, or arithmetic errors... Although then I'm sure there will be input errors if scores are put into a computer

 

[King]

You can do it for your parents but it would still mean when announced and the parents are listening they would hear a non-normalized score. One of the repeated issues I have heard with different scoresheets is that you have to explain why the scores announced to parents are that and 845 one week is last place but a 7.5 the next week is 1st. This would mean for now no changing of how anyone scores but adjust how it is announced and displayed on the websites.

And to further ask, how many gyms hand out scoresheet placements to their parents at a comp or after a comp? Do y'all take around printers to do this? Making a scoresheet thing for each parent seems rather silly to me.

 

[King]

Basically we normalize the data so that it is easily interpreted by anyone.

 

[King]

To sum up my positions:

1. I love this idea, kingston and if the EP's won't do it, you should do a conversion after every competition!
2. Reiterate my support of BlueCat 's request to see ALL scoresheets

As for the EP's doing it... why not make it a mandatory USASF requirement. All member EP's must report their scores for placements as a percentage. I am going to suggest it for the next voting rules cycle.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I think it's a step in the right direction even with the flaws mentioned. The flaws exist in some form whether the scores are converted or not. I think making the announced score a little simpler for the average person, parent, or grandparent to understand would be beneficial and require little extra work from the EPs.

 

[BlueCat]

You can do it for your parents but it would still mean when announced and the parents are listening they would hear a non-normalized score. One of the repeated issues I have heard with different scoresheets is that you have to explain why the scores announced to parents are that and 845 one week is last place but a 7.5 the next week is 1st. This would mean for now no changing of how anyone scores but adjust how it is announced and displayed on the websites.

And to further ask, how many gyms hand out scoresheet placements to their parents at a comp or after a comp? Do y'all take around printers to do this? Making a scoresheet thing for each parent seems rather silly to me.

If memory serves correctly, they have not announced scores at any of the competitions we have gone to this season. This is ultimate lack of transparency to me. All of them eventually released the scores, but it was sometimes days later.