All-Star Placements

[catlady]

Why isn't your gym sharing the information they receive? The practice after each comp is scoresheet review for our teams, parents are welcome. They share scores, scoresheet comments, deductions, placement within a division....is this not the norm?

Retired cp's coaches went over the scores with the athletes and sent the score sheet and comments via text or email to the parents. I truly don't understand the concept of paying for a service and then when that service is actually being reviewed or judged, withholding the actual reasons for that score from the person that's paying for it.

Restaurant posts a health inspection score of 84.
Me: Where's the score sheet? What did they find?
Restaurant owner: We told our employees and your five year old. :confused:

 

[alpaca]

We did a competition several years ago, and are scheduled this season. It’s Live!. They release your score while you’re still on the mat. Then you sit in the winners lounge until someone in your division kicks you off of the top spot. The kids loved it! And it took care of the waiting around for awards!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CP's old gym is going to one of these this year. And it will be eye opening for them. The coaches are used to clawing back points when they argue with judges. And it worked for many years until last year.

 

[alpaca]

Retired cp's coaches went over the scores with the athletes and sent the score sheet and comments via text or email to the parents. I truly don't understand the concept of paying for a service and then when that service is actually being reviewed or judged, withholding the actual reasons for that score from the person that's paying for it.

Restaurant posts a health inspection score of 84.
Me: Where's the score sheet? What did they find?
Restaurant owner: We told our employees and your five year old. :confused:

Neither gym my daughter was a part of released info to the parents.

She was at one gym for only a year. The year after she left that gym went to a 2 day comp where day 1 scores were posted online the night of day 1. You could sign up to get the scores emailed to you. The gym owner had an absolute fit and labeled those parents troublemakers and even yelled at an athlete before she hit the floor saying that her mom was a busybody and had no business sharing that (publicly posted) information. I dodged a bullet by getting my kid out of that gym asap.

The second gym did not want parents to know anything. They wanted top be the sole provider of data. I got yelled at bc "the owner doesn't know this yet, you need to keep your mouth shut" about stuff that was publicly available online. Frankly they didn't want people to know scores and comments bc they were making big mistakes. Like, a full point deduction for a legality at Summit kind of mistakes. Needless to say, my child does not cheer there anymore either.

When I hear of gyms freely sharing scores and data, I am sad that I never found anything like that near us. And I think it is a major contributing factor as to why cheer is not very big in my area. Parents are not willing to tolerate a lack of transparency.

 

[catlady]

Neither gym my daughter was a part of released info to the parents.

She was at one gym for only a year. The year after she left that gym went to a 2 day comp where day 1 scores were posted online the night of day 1. You could sign up to get the scores emailed to you. The gym owner had an absolute fit and labeled those parents troublemakers and even yelled at an athlete before she hit the floor saying that her mom was a busybody and had no business sharing that (publicly posted) information. I dodged a bullet by getting my kid out of that gym asap.

The second gym did not want parents to know anything. They wanted top be the sole provider of data. I got yelled at bc "the owner doesn't know this yet, you need to keep your mouth shut" about stuff that was publicly available online. Frankly they didn't want people to know scores and comments bc they were making big mistakes. Like, a full point deduction for a legality at Summit kind of mistakes. Needless to say, my child does not cheer there anymore either.

When I hear of gyms freely sharing scores and data, I am sad that I never found anything like that near us. And I think it is a major contributing factor as to why cheer is not very big in my area. Parents are not willing to tolerate a lack of transparency.

I don't see the benefit in withholding that information. Someone in the thread said other subjective sports don't release the judges comments, but in Olympic gymnastics, skating, diving, etc, there is a commentator telling us exactly what skills were omitted, performed well or poorly, and how much those errors will affect their scores. Fans are at least getting some type of education they can apply to a college, club, or other event. For the parents that don't or can't watch practices, that don't get judge note information, and whose child may or may not communicate coach info, I'm starting to understand some of the crazy comments I would hear. No wonder some parents honestly thought if they teased their kid's hair higher they might win, it was probably the most obvious difference they saw if both teams "hit." Sad.

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

I don't see the benefit in withholding that information. Someone in the thread said other subjective sports don't release the judges comments, but in Olympic gymnastics, skating, diving, etc, there is a commentator telling us exactly what skills were omitted, performed well or poorly, and how much those errors will affect their scores. Fans are at least getting some type of education they can apply to a college, club, or other event. For the parents that don't or can't watch practices, that don't get judge note information, and whose child may or may not communicate coach info, I'm starting to understand some of the crazy comments I would hear. No wonder some parents honestly thought if they teased their kid's hair higher they might win, it was probably the most obvious difference they saw if both teams "hit." Sad.

To build off of this, those other subjective sports also have 1. an actual universal scoring system that cheer doesn't have; and 2. an actual Code of Points/Point System that assigns each element a numerical value which cheer also does not have. Cheer has a bloated scoring rubric. To compare cheer to those other sports is comparing apples to oranges. Those other sports are far less subjective than cheer.

I will say that most commentators across a lot of sporting events are useless for the audience and human error/subjectivity happens in EVERY single sport. But spectators can follow along easily to those other sports because there's a method to the scores that is cut and dry. "Simone Bile's difficulty score is 2 points higher than the next highest D-score. That's why, when she fell and went out of bounds twice, she still came in first. Because the total deductions were less than 2 points and her difficulty score protected her from mistakes." Cheer has nothing like that. For how complex a cheer routine is, there needs to be a simplified and standardized scoring system that leaves little room for interpretation, not a 12 page rubric. I feel like Jim Carey in The Number 23 when looking at Varsity's scoring rubric.

Releasing a final score publicly means nothing when there's no context behind it. A released final score is not full transparency. I can go find the itemized scores from past Olympics for gymnastics in every event and division. D-scores, entire panel scores, penalties, rankings, etc. Cheer needs to do the same. We shouldn't have to hunt down the full score sheets on Twitter after comps.... In the meantime, if I were a paying customer, I'd like to be able to see the scoring breakdowns after the comp from the gym if I asked to. That score sheet is a reflection of the service I'm paying thousands of dollars a year for. Transparency should happen at all levels.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

It’s my biggest frustration in the entire sport. I’ve been pushing for increased scoring transparency for years.

Sort of like having a basketball game where the scoreboard is turned off until the last two minutes.

I sort of get it though.

98% of cheer parents are totally clueless about judging and what meets the definition of certain deductions (coaches struggle with this one sometimes as well). I am sure it cuts down on parent-driven extracurriculars by sending that information through a knowledgeable person who should be able to explain it to them. Of course, then you also have those coaches who think their teams are supposed to win absolutely every. Single. Competition.

 

[catlady]

I will say that most commentators across a lot of sporting events are useless for the audience and human error/subjectivity happens in EVERY single sport. But spectators can follow along easily to those other sports because there's a method to the scores that is cut and dry. "Simone Bile's difficulty score is 2 points higher than the next highest D-score. That's why, when she fell and went out of bounds twice, she still came in first. Because the total deductions were less than 2 points and her difficulty score protected her from mistakes." Cheer has nothing like that. For how complex a cheer routine is, there needs to be a simplified and standardized scoring system that leaves little room for interpretation, not a 12 page rubric. I feel like Jim Carey in The Number 23 when looking at Varsity's scoring rubric.

My only disagreement with your comment is, while I agree not all commentators are great, it is from commentators I learned what an axel, lutz, salchow, toe loop, etc. was. It was from a commentator that I learned Simone's point difference and why. Without those commentators, or at least some type of explanation for what happened, I would not follow along easily. I'm very impressed you knew Simone's difficulty score was 2 pts higher without a source giving you that information. I'm not being sarcastic, some people know a sport better than others, but it is learned from somewhere or someone. Which was the point I was trying to make.

Ultimately, the gym is the contractual client of the EP. They choose what events their athletes go to, and if they want to share their score sheet information. The only judge tutorial I could find was from Justin Carrier from 2013, and the first statement is the Panel Judge Philosophy: "Looking for reasons to reward, NOT reasons to punish. It's about the kids!" Based on that statement, it appears (at least in 2013) that while they desire a competitive atmosphere, their #1 concern is the kids having fun and being rewarded for their hard work....Disney anyone? Unfortunately, that philosophy doesn't always go hand in hand with appeasing parents and fans that desire a higher level of understanding and competition. <Video>

 

[SthrnCheerMom]

We have now competed in 2 competitions. There were quite a few this past weekend. I believe the majority of them all have released scores. Some only day one as of last night until after bid reveals. Some have released the actual scores with deductions. I do think this is a step in the right direction.

 

[emo_wifey]

We have now competed in 2 competitions. There were quite a few this past weekend. I believe the majority of them all have released scores. Some only day one as of last night until after bid reveals. Some have released the actual scores with deductions. I do think this is a step in the right direction.

Yes, we competed at ABKC and I was pleasantly surprised to see scores along with the placements this morning.

CP's gym doesn't share the scores or breakdown with parents, at least at the lower levels. The coach did let us know zero deductions, day 1 placement, and that the first place team would be incredibly difficult to beat. There are definitely comps we've been at that I'd like to know this information, but from this weekend what I saw, the basic scores without breakdown make sense anyway.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

Different world but as a HS coach, I always went over the scoresheet and comments with my kids at next practice.

Example: "We got great feedback on the pyramid and great scores there, awesome work to your pyramid groups. One thing to remember is to keep your chest up in jumps, that was something the judges commented on and I see it at games as well." If they wanted the numbers, I did not hide them and I'm sure some of them shared with parents which is fine.

I REALLY ONLY gave exact numbers if we were taking an OBSCENE amount of deductions in an area or if it is something I repeatedly harped on but wasn't getting better. Or if deductions or mistakes were costing them placements. Not that I was trying to be mean but sometimes, they needed to see it/hear it from the judges' POV and not mine.

Ex: "I have to tell you guys we took xxxx in deductions over bobbles on these dismounts in the cheer and they commented that we needed to clean up that section. Which is similar to what Assistant Coach was saying last practice and at the game two weeks ago."

It did not bother me at all for the parents to share that they knew those things. I assumed that if the kids knew, they'd share with mom/dad (even if out of frustration.)

 

[XtremeWpg]

Our provincial sports organization publishes all scores within a week of an event so they’re accessible to anyone really.

Our gym goes over the sheets with kids, either that night if it’s a 2 day, or at the next practice for a 1 day. we explain their score, where they lost drivers, the comments etc. We generally do not comment on competitors scores at all.

For parents, we send an email out with a summary of how we think the event went for the kids, number of deductions, and areas the judges asked for improvement. Since the scores are publicized, we don’t break down scores for parents. The majority have said they don’t really care about score as much as comments and deductions, they’re pretty with it on the subjective nature of the end number thankfully!

 

[molls]

I coached for 7 years. At the second (and last) gym I coached at, athletes were not released on day 1 of 2 day events until we received scoresheets and reviewed them with them (and parents were invited and encouraged to sit in on the conversation). The owner would send an e-mail on the Monday after comp weekend with info about scoring - not ALL the scores, but final score, point differences between us and other teams in our division, highs and lows, areas to celebrate and areas we'd focus on improving. It was much appreciated by all the parents.

But - we wouldn't share information on day 1 until it was shared with EVERYONE. There'd always be a parent lurking near the score check area to immediately ask how we did, did we get deductions, etc. The info was not given to them - not to withold information from the paying customer, but because we've all seen how a game of telephone works - by the time it reaches the end of the circle, the message is warped and incorrect. Like I've said in other threads... it takes 1 or 2 bad seeds spreading misinformation to tighten up or close a very open flow of communication with everyone.

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Different world but as a HS coach, I always went over the scoresheet and comments with my kids at next practice.

Example: "We got great feedback on the pyramid and great scores there, awesome work to your pyramid groups. One thing to remember is to keep your chest up in jumps, that was something the judges commented on and I see it at games as well." If they wanted the numbers, I did not hide them and I'm sure some of them shared with parents which is fine.

I REALLY ONLY gave exact numbers if we were taking an OBSCENE amount of deductions in an area or if it is something I repeatedly harped on but wasn't getting better. Or if deductions or mistakes were costing them placements. Not that I was trying to be mean but sometimes, they needed to see it/hear it from the judges' POV and not mine.

Ex: "I have to tell you guys we took xxxx in deductions over bobbles on these dismounts in the cheer and they commented that we needed to clean up that section. Which is similar to what Assistant Coach was saying last practice and at the game two weeks ago."

It did not bother me at all for the parents to share that they knew those things. I assumed that if the kids knew, they'd share with mom/dad (even if out of frustration.)

same different world, I take a more exact approach.

Power point presentation with the judges comments and scores on a particular section sitting right next to the video.

you have to keep in mind with UCA scoring, it’s comparative, and in order to have a frame of reference you need to at least have the score above and below yours in each category in order to make any sense out of it at all.

 

[Ashleigh1984]

Our coach sends out a message in our group with the scores and judges comments and asks them to read them to our girls (they are 5-9). She also sends her own comments based on video she has watched. She does ask us not to tell our athletes what place we are in just so they can focus on hitting and not worry about placement (usually if they hit, they win... at least as tinies as their difficulty was usually higher than most). NCA last year was awesome because they were the most transparent and it was awesome to see how our difficulty compared to others. With a competition that is so close in score for the top teams, it was good to see where the differences were (even if we didn't understand them...).

 

[CC1107]

Yes, we competed at ABKC and I was pleasantly surprised to see scores along with the placements this morning.

CP's gym doesn't share the scores or breakdown with parents, at least at the lower levels. The coach did let us know zero deductions, day 1 placement, and that the first place team would be incredibly difficult to beat. There are definitely comps we've been at that I'd like to know this information, but from this weekend what I saw, the basic scores without breakdown make sense anyway.

I am replying to only to say my daughter was also at ABKC with 6 other teams from our gym. It is one of our favorites!!