All-Star Sandbagging Karma

[PullandPray23]

heres my thing; 1 athlete realistically cant win a ring for any team. i.e.; angel rice with her sick kick double didn't even get steel rays a globe, so 1 level 5 athlete isn't going to dramatically change the rankings of any team regardless of level

 

[12stepCheermom]

totally agree. Someone mentioned that they would rather watch the Summit than Worlds because more teams are hitting and the technique is better. That's what you get when you have teams sandbagging left and right. I know of teams that have almost full team tucks that are not in level 3. It's legal so they have every right, but it means the lower level skills that they are competing are going to look very clean and they will most likely hit. I see more teams having to compete at a lower level than their actually skills in order to stay competitive.

Agreed! You can't really sandbag level 5....but you surely can at levels 1-4. There are very few roster limitations for summit. I wonder how those teams that had carried over bids from last year and had try outs geared to the 2014 summit did? Some of those gyms specifically held tryouts for summit teams that "already had a bid" carried over from 2013.


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[12stepCheermom]

heres my thing; 1 athlete realistically cant win a ring for any team. i.e.; angel rice with her sick kick double didn't even get steel rays a globe, so 1 level 5 athlete isn't going to dramatically change the rankings of any team regardless of level

True. But you can drop an entire team's level for summit and make an entirely new team out of higher level kids. That will dramatically change rankings and it's not illegal. There aren't roster change limits like there are for worlds that I'm aware of. The 5 worlds crossover rule is the only roster limit I know about. Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong about that.


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[PullandPray23]

True. But you can drop an entire team's level for summit and make an entirely new team out of higher level kids. That will dramatically change rankings and it's not illegal. There aren't roster change limits like there are for worlds that I'm aware of. The 5 worlds crossover rule is the only roster limit I know about. Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong about that.


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well if people are doing that shame on them, tbh I haven't even tried to care about the summit yet...its still too new and hasn't had the kinks worked out yet...give me another summit or 2 and ill prob be all about it.

 

[piglet]

I wonder how those teams that had carried over bids from last year and had try outs geared to the 2014 summit did?

My CP's gym has a team that went to Summit on a deferred bid from 2013, and very sadly, didn't make it past day 1.

 

[Klynn641]

heres my thing; 1 athlete realistically cant win a ring for any team. i.e.; angel rice with her sick kick double didn't even get steel rays a globe, so 1 level 5 athlete isn't going to dramatically change the rankings of any team regardless of level

Not when there is just one. What about when there is five ? Ten ?


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[Klynn641]

I can't completely disagree with this because sometimes there's a few kids who aren't full "world team capable" yet but they have Level 5 skills... creating a Level 5 Restricted team for them to be on and master their skills makes sense even if it does mean pulling other level 5 athletes onto it. I don't believe it is okay if the team is doing it to win but I do think it is okay to give those kids a team to actually work on skills and hopefully move up to the next level.

If they're not doing it with the purpose of winning, just pull athletes from the level 4 team for the R5. Those athletes need some R5 experience too.


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[Klynn641]

Until it is a rule about how many athletes or/ and levels can crossovers, there r coaches who r out there for the "win" no matter what needs to b done and it sucks for the gym who are truly that level because of what athletes they have. At a comp with our sr 2 team athlete this year, the team against us -some of them wore their level 5 uniforms , so they did not try to hide it.


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Why hide it ? They aren't doing anything wrong according to the rules. We fell victim to a stacked team one year in J2 at NCA. It was so blatant and brazen by the coach/owner that word got around NCA. Strong words were exchanged here on the Fierceboard. He was very righteous in his behavior and adamantly argued that if it was wrong to do, they would've created a rule that would prevent it. He figured that since there was no such rule in existence, he won fairly. He flagrantly skirted the rule and was proud of himself


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[Klynn641]

Hey CheerBank,

That is it! Are we really sick of seeing higher level athletes crossing over to level 1 and level 2 teams are here we go again being all wishy-washy on the topic... Let's be honest, in all the scenario I read posted, never once did anybody complained and talked about that level 5 or level 4 athlete only being good in one aspect of the scoresheet, but all the complaints have been these athletes being an awesome team and cheating... I suggested an viable way to even the playing field for lower level teams and now, we want to piecemeal the areas these higher level athletes are equal in skill. As a new comer to this sport, I understand clearly why we have this widespread cheating going on in cheerleading... because we complain about the problem and when suggestions are made to remedy the problem, then we start talking out of the other side of our necks... and justifying why a higher level athletes are used and then talk about the small gym that have no other alternatives, etc... For the life of me, when someone suggest given an handicap to the lower level teams because higher level athletes are crossing over... then we need to piecemeal how unfair this could be on the level 5 or level 4 athletes... I am just confused, again, are we sick of the uneven playing field or are we content just wanting to sit around and talking about it to death...If we are still in the talking stage on this matter I think, I will come back for the resolution session because I am sick of talking and beating this dead horse... :deadhorse::confused:

I kind of view the Fierceboard as you would a think tank in Engineering. There's a lot of experience here on the board. I personally like the fact that we can use this forum to tap into that wealth of knowledge. It makes us much better informed individuals. We are given the opportunity to give opinions in a safe environment without condemnation or criticism. We can table problems, ideas, suggestions, and even sometimes solutions. And most importantly we do this with people that understand our type (we're a very special breed).

Granted endless debate is an aspect of the Fierceboard experience at times. But even that I find entertaining. I understand your desire for more action, less talk where problems are concerned. However, I feel it's prudent to exercise caution in these matters. There are a lot of different aspects to many of the problems identified on this board. Many of these aspects we learn about through other individuals experiences. So, what may seem to be endless discussion or complaining to you may in fact be a form of fact finding. This is all very necessary when forming an opinion and/or making an informed decision. If solutions were easy the problem wouldn't exist.

If at any given moment an individual feels that they've got the solution to one of the many issues that get discussed, I would suggest that they post their view and subject it to the ultimate litmus test here on the board. Then with an open mind listen to what people say and proceed accordingly. Sometimes all we need to solve a problem is a Champion to make it happen.

All the while keep in mind there are some problems that we don't have the authority to influence change. But, we may know someone who does.


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[Klynn641]

There is a competition that we are going to in the next few weeks where there is a gym that is competing as a small gym. They have over 75 members at their gym but not all the teams are going to this competition. I assume they are doing this so they can compete against the small gyms and have a better chance of winning then they would if they competed against larger gyms. There are many ways to cheat at this game.

I thought the deciding factor in gym size was by definition the number of athletes involved in All Star Cheer at that particular gym. Not the number of athletes the gym has at the competition. In the case of multiple gym locations it's the sum of athletes at all of the gyms combined. Does the rule vary depending on which event ?


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[Fiercecheermom]

Why hide it ? They aren't doing anything wrong according to the rules. We fell victim to a stacked team one year in J2 at NCA. It was so blatant and brazen by the coach/owner that word got around NCA. Strong words were exchanged here on the Fierceboard. He was very righteous in his behavior and adamantly argued that if it was wrong to do, they would've created a rule that would prevent it. He figured that since there was no such rule in existence, he won fairly. He flagrantly skirted the rule and was proud of himself


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Unfortunately, there are a few owners/coaches who feel that way. I would not want them training my athlete as this is exactly the mindset I am trying to avoid while raising my CP. Just because there is no "rule" doesn't make it "right". Only you can decide what you can/can't live with. At the end of the day, you have to live with yourself and look at your face in the mirror. There is nothing embarrassing about competing at your correct level, doing your best, and not winning. Can't say the same for "not competing to your full potential". How "proud" could those kids be of a 1st place in S1 vs a 3rd in S4?

 

[Klynn641]

Agreed! You can't really sandbag level 5....but you surely can at levels 1-4. There are very few roster limitations for summit. I wonder how those teams that had carried over bids from last year and had try outs geared to the 2014 summit did? Some of those gyms specifically held tryouts for summit teams that "already had a bid" carried over from 2013.


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If you're bringing Worlds athletes over to R5 for Summit, that's ethically wrong whether you call it sandbagging, stacking, or just cheating. So, I guess I feel that Level 5 can have sandbagging.

I know of teams that received a Summit Bid. Then prior to Summit they held a special tryout and selected the athletes for their Summit team. They had very few, if any of the same athletes that comprised the team that won the bid. The team that received the bid and the team attending Summit on the bid were two different teams.

Another gym was only taking their Worlds team to NCA. So, they formed a special 1/2 year team of Level 3, 4, and R5 athletes to attend just NCA and Summit. They competed as a J2 team. This happened years ago. Our team took second to the stacked team. To this day, individuals on the stacked team gloat on social media about how they may have cheated but look who has the jacket and ring. They even send rude messages directly to our athletes that lost to their stacked team. This occurred years ago and still to this day they send messages like that.

I have tons of examples. But we need to look at the legacy of this type of behavior. When coaches include athletes in their cheating methods in order to obtain a banner or trophy we are sanctioning this behavior in the minds of the athletes. After all, their role models (parents/coaches) are signing off on such behavior as perfectly acceptable. I don't care how prestigious the gym is, how much my CP loves her coach and teammates, how much she is learning, or how winning her team is, I will never send my CP the message that cheating is acceptable. My CP is fully aware that if we ever see such behavior at her gym, even if it's not her team, we are leaving the gym. I would hate doing that to my CP, but to participate (albeit passively) in such behavior is in opposition to my belief system. A big price is paid by the athletes when a coach is willing to exhibit this kind of behavior. The message it sends remains with the athletes forever. The only benefactor is the coach/gym and the athletes pay the price. I don't want a coach like this influencing my child.
. does cheats


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[CoachMandiCF]

I thought the deciding factor in gym size was by definition the number of athletes involved in All Star Cheer at that particular gym. Not the number of athletes the gym has at the competition. In the case of multiple gym locations it's the sum of athletes at all of the gyms combined. Does the rule vary depending on which event ?


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Small gym is determined by the total number of athletes in the gym, not the number of athletes attending an event so you are correct.

I know there are some events that are "small gym" only but allow gyms up to 100 athletes at the comps.


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[yojaehs]

I hate crossovers but as long as it is within the guidelines and rules I have no problem with a gyms choices to use them. Again, personally I don't like using them and I wish the Industry would get rid of them but until they do if a small gym is going to use them then a large gym has the exact same rights.


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[minamay]

Just another thing to throw out there: Worlds/Summit/UCA/NCA/any out of state competition is very costly for travel. Could money ever play a part in why certain people opt out of these competitions or have roster changes? I haven't cheered all-star since I was in 8th grade, however, in 9th grade I did attend a competition with my old gym. That competition was one we received a bid to in California (we are from Florida). I was asked to join the team in fill in when some people could not afford the airfare and hotel and when others were behind on tuition payments. I was not the only one to fill in, it was at least half of the team that was replaced for monetary reasons. This was not a competition they had planned on attending at the beginning of the season. Now granted I did compete at my appropriate skill level and I believe most of the other athletes did as well but they very well could have pulled higher level athletes if that was all they had available.