All-Star Slowing Progression?

[Cheer Dad]

I know we all want to see skill progression in the athletes but as parents, and athletes, at what point do we look at our athlete throwing a jank a$$ skill and say STOP you are going to kill yourself because it is obvious they need a stronger foundation to build upon?

I'm talking of the kids throwing back head springs because the elbows are so bent there is no support, ROBHS to a full where the feet on the 2nd BHS are landing apart and one or both feet land on the quarter turn so they can attempt to spin a full, back tucks where knees are barely clearing the floor.

You get the idea. Coaches, I know you all will have a different perspective but have you ever had a parent come to you scared for their child's safety and if so did you listen to them or just blow them off?

 

[SheCheers]

I know we all want to see skill progression in the athletes but as parents, and athletes, at what point do we look at our athlete throwing a jank a$$ skill and say STOP you are going to kill yourself because it is obvious they need a stronger foundation to build upon?

I'm talking of the kids throwing back head springs because the elbows are so bent there is no support, ROBHS to a full where the feet on the 2nd BHS are landing apart and one or both feet land on the quarter turn so they can attempt to spin a full, back tucks where knees are barely clearing the floor.

You get the idea. Coaches, I know you all will have a different perspective but have you ever had a parent come to you scared for their child's safety and if so did you listen to them or just blow them off?

A remember watching a gym (that's no longer in business) try to field a mini 2 team where almost every BHS thrown, had elbows bent and on their head. I think most of the time this stuff is happening because there is/are unqualified coaches allowing it. I also find its more likely to happen (allowing unsafe skills) on younger kids. I have watched a coach force perfection before progression on a teenager, but an 8 year old can throw one piked layout and move on to working fulls the next day. It's way more impressive and accepted if a young kid can chunk a skill even with bad form.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Unfortunately, I think this is where the tumbling rules came from a few years ago, although they only addressed it at the top level of cheer and I still don't think they addressed it correctly.

I'd like to say credentialed coaches would stop that sortof thing from happening...and some do, I have no doubt. My kids have been stopped working on skills until the previous ones were cleaned up and "held back" for their own benefit. But, not all coaches are willing to look SM in the face and say...."no, that head throwing flip over (or as our beloved coach once described the "round off back handspring flying squirrel to the face") is not a tuck and we'll drill handspring rebounds until the end of time to teach the proper set" and not all coaches/owners are willing to relevel a team when "we've got kids who can throw layouts so were making a level 4!" Even though the layouts may be hands free back handsprings...or tuck outs. And sadly...not all coaches have the knowledge and skills to teach tumbling to begin with (credentialed or not, let's face it, it's not hard to get) to stop Susie before she spears herself into the floor on a double she rips off the mat.

The bad thing is that parents generally don't know that their coaches may not be qualified either. Just because a kid competed on a level 5 team doesn't mean 1) they're level 5 and 2) that they have any business flipping and spinning kids.

I still think unless tumbling technique becomes painfully deducted on a scoresheet this kind of thing will go unabated. Until it hurts a coach/owner to put bad technique on the mat...they put whatever technique they have on the mat (on the whole, there are exceptions to this of course)

 

[cheermommaRN]

I guess I'm just more sensitive to it because of all the injuries we've seen personally. My oldest had a friend break her arm through the skin doing running passes. The coach beat himself up for months because he knew she was tired and regretted stepping in to stop her.
We have always had top quality coaching (CA, Spirit, Rival) that forced perfection before progression. When cp was younger she hated it because she wanted to go go go. Now she wants to tumble at SOT because she knows those guys will be tough but her tumbling will be on point.

 

[quitthedrama]

My guess is more coaches stop the progression than parents going to coaches to stop it. I see so many parents who don't care what the skill looks like - as long as they can say that their kid has "x" skill they are happy. Case in point - how many parents do you know that bribe their kids to get a skill? It is dangerous and counter productive IMO.

 

[Official OWECheer]

I know we all want to see skill progression in the athletes but as parents, and athletes, at what point do we look at our athlete throwing a jank a$$ skill and say STOP you are going to kill yourself because it is obvious they need a stronger foundation to build upon?

I'm talking of the kids throwing back head springs because the elbows are so bent there is no support, ROBHS to a full where the feet on the 2nd BHS are landing apart and one or both feet land on the quarter turn so they can attempt to spin a full, back tucks where knees are barely clearing the floor.

You get the idea. Coaches, I know you all will have a different perspective but have you ever had a parent come to you scared for their child's safety and if so did you listen to them or just blow them off?

This reminds me of when I look at competition photos and see a kid throwing a tumbling skill, and the form is AWFUL. It makes you question whether they were actually tumbling at that moment.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

It's hard. I think a lot of times it's coach to student ratio. Classes that are too big lead to athletes getting less attention and the details are overlooked. Other times it's that a coach doesn't even know how to fix improper technique. So many coaches just flip kids and think they're teaching them. If they don't take the time and energy to learn proper drills, etc., that kid is going to have janky technique.

I am basically cheer mom to my 13 year old cousin. I also coach her middle school team and have coached all stars for several years. She has a solid ROBHS so I know many gyms would have her start working tucks (AKA just chucking her over). I don't feel that her technique is good enough to start tucks and she knows that, so when we go to open gym or classes, she requests whatever skills I've told her to work on for that night.

 

[12stepCheermom]

I guess I'm just more sensitive to it because of all the injuries we've seen personally. My oldest had a friend break her arm through the skin doing running passes. The coach beat himself up for months because he knew she was tired and regretted stepping in to stop her.
We have always had top quality coaching (CA, Spirit, Rival) that forced perfection before progression. When cp was younger she hated it because she wanted to go go go. Now she wants to tumble at SOT because she knows those guys will be tough but her tumbling will be on point.

It comforting to me as a parent to know I have coaches that are like that. I actually had this conversation last night with cp14. She's got a beautiful two to full but doesn't have the confidence to throw it herself...frankly she's so scared of it it takes her some courage to throw it with a spot....

Last night a tumbling coach she hasn't worked with much gave her a heavy spot and realized she didn't need all that. The next was a light spot and then told her to try herself (which she didn't, she balked and handspring rebounded) but my point to her in the car was that the coach (or any of hers) would never in a million years tell her to do it herself and step away unless they knew she could land it safely. So I told her to relax...clearly you have the skill and technique and when your head and heart are ready to go solo...you will. And the best part is that you'll land it, because they're only encouraging you to do it because they know you have it.

(Off topic: I sound uber patient and I am on the outside with her but inside I'm dying. It's so pretty I just wish she'd find the confidence to throw it. It will only take her manning up one time to realize she HAS this skill.....ugh....I'm not a patient person) anyway....

My point was that you know you have the skill when they allow you to try it alone. If the coaches aren't stepping away from the spot then that's a good indicator you shouldn't try this at home.

But not all coaches are as committed to perfecting the details that come before the showy stuff.

 

[TheVipersMom]

I think it depends, are the kids that are still doing headsprings now working on tucks?
Is the kid spinning that full off the ground, no set, feet apart and working on doubles?

In this case idc about the parents the coaches absolutely need to step in and tell them to stop.

Most kids don't have perfect tumbling until they have mastered the skill. My kids round off full last night on her first try looked completely atrocious and looks like she will be working on this till they deem it's acceptable.


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[Official OWECheer]

It comforting to me as a parent to know I have coaches that are like that. I actually had this conversation last night with cp14. She's got a beautiful two to full but doesn't have the confidence to throw it herself...frankly she's so scared of it it takes her some courage to throw it with a spot....

Last night a tumbling coach she hasn't worked with much gave her a heavy spot and realized she didn't need all that. The next was a light spot and then told her to try herself (which she didn't, she balked and handspring rebounded) but my point to her in the car was that the coach (or any of hers) would never in a million years tell her to do it herself and step away unless they knew she could land it safely. So I told her to relax...clearly you have the skill and technique and when your head and heart are ready to go solo...you will. And the best part is that you'll land it, because they're only encouraging you to do it because they know you have it.

(Off topic: I sound uber patient and I am on the outside with her but inside I'm dying. It's so pretty I just wish she'd find the confidence to throw it. It will only take her manning up one time to realize she HAS this skill.....ugh....I'm not a patient person) anyway....

My point was that you know you have the skill when they allow you to try it alone. If the coaches aren't stepping away from the spot then that's a good indicator you shouldn't try this at home.

But not all coaches are as committed to perfecting the details that come before the showy stuff.

And sadly, lots of people praise the showy stuff even if it is performed with horrible technique.

 

[cheergoogle]

I agree that kids are pushed too fast to gain tumbling skills. Skills are being thrown on top of skills that are still not perfected. (Such as a RO BHS full when the set for the tuck/layout is still not even close or RO BHS tuck when the the BHS still has bent arms).

Unfortunately, at least in my experience, the slow tumbler either gets left behind or brushed aside as a bad tumbler so parents feel they have no choice but to push and bribe their kids.

 

[cheer25mom]

My guess is more coaches stop the progression than parents going to coaches to stop it. I see so many parents who don't care what the skill looks like - as long as they can say that their kid has "x" skill they are happy. Case in point - how many parents do you know that bribe their kids to get a skill? It is dangerous and counter productive IMO.

I know I see this over and over at our gym, and then those same parents get angry when their kid has a tumbling block. I personally think that the rush to the next skill without perfecting what a kid has contributes to mental blocks. Kids are throwing skills that are not solid, so there is an element of fear there every time, then one bad fall and they block on it.

CP has a private lesson coach that is very much perfection before progression, and you have to understand that going in and have the right mindset to be successful. Time after time I see the same thing. Kid is stuck at a certain level, cannot land that tuck, layout, full ect. They sign up for privates with him because he has a reputation for turning out top notch tumblers. They come in and expect to immediately be working the "problem skill". Instead they go back to the roundoff or handspring that has not been perfected and is causing the issue. Parent leaves in a huff because "Suzy has _____ why is she working roundoffs?" only to show back up months later still working the same skill, but now ready to listen to the coach and fix bad habits. My CP wouldn't tumble with him when we came to the gym because of this approach, and frankly I didn't understand enough to tell her different. he was trying to correct bad habits she had picked up tumbling at a dance studio and she just wanted to move on. She is older now and sees more of the big picture so it works for her. She is a stronger tumbler, and when she gets a skill, she is confident that she can throw it safely.

 

[Cheer Dad]

My point was that you know you have the skill when they allow you to try it alone. If the coaches aren't stepping away from the spot then that's a good indicator you shouldn't try this at home.

But not all coaches are as committed to perfecting the details that come before the showy stuff.

What about the coaches that don't spot though and keep allowing the kids to eat mat? You know, the keep chucking it till you figure out how to land and if you get hurt your doing it wrong?

 

[CheerBank]

It comforting to me as a parent to know I have coaches that are like that. I actually had this conversation last night with cp14. She's got a beautiful two to full but doesn't have the confidence to throw it herself...frankly she's so scared of it it takes her some courage to throw it with a spot....

Last night a tumbling coach she hasn't worked with much gave her a heavy spot and realized she didn't need all that. The next was a light spot and then told her to try herself (which she didn't, she balked and handspring rebounded) but my point to her in the car was that the coach (or any of hers) would never in a million years tell her to do it herself and step away unless they knew she could land it safely. So I told her to relax...clearly you have the skill and technique and when your head and heart are ready to go solo...you will. And the best part is that you'll land it, because they're only encouraging you to do it because they know you have it.

(Off topic: I sound uber patient and I am on the outside with her but inside I'm dying. It's so pretty I just wish she'd find the confidence to throw it. It will only take her manning up one time to realize she HAS this skill.....ugh....I'm not a patient person) anyway....

My point was that you know you have the skill when they allow you to try it alone. If the coaches aren't stepping away from the spot then that's a good indicator you shouldn't try this at home.

But not all coaches are as committed to perfecting the details that come before the showy stuff.

I think as the kids get older they are their own worst enemy with progressing in tumbling because there is a greater fear of getting hurt, especially for those who have already been hurt working on a certain skill. No matter what a coach says to them - even that they are 100% ready - it does not matter one bit until they are ready to own that skill. And I agree, that's when they've truly got it.

For the younger kids, there might not be any fear yet. Or there may be the desire to please a coach or a parent. But I do think particularly with the younger kids it is tantamount for a coach to make sure a kid is truly ready to try it on their own, and not allow them to try it just because they really want to. The trade off of getting seriously injured versus possibly jankily landing a new skill to me is not worth it.

 

[cheermommaRN]

Yeah "crash and burn to learn" coaches should be black balled from the industry. They are walking liabilities to gyms.