All-Star Starting A Discussion: The Safety Of Spring Floor Vs... Well.. Anything Else

[cheeeeer93]

Eventually I want to talk about the physics and mechanics of why it hurts... but were not there yet.

I'm not an expert or anything but this would be my best guess..
If someone is trained to tumble on spring and just 'whip it out' they really aren't learning the technique to do the skill but rather the technique to use the spring to help them out. So when they go to hard floor, it's a lot more difficult because they don't have that extra 'oomph' to help them. It really all just goes back to the progressions of learning tumbling.
I've seen gymnasts who spend hours just perfecting handstands go into school cheer and not have a single issue tumble except for the initial adjustment factor because they truly know how to do the skills.

 

[King]

I'm not an expert or anything but this would be my best guess..
If someone is trained to tumble on spring and just 'whip it out' they really aren't learning the technique to do the skill but rather the technique to use the spring to help them out. So when they go to hard floor, it's a lot more difficult because they don't have that extra 'oomph' to help them. It really all just goes back to the progressions of learning tumbling.
I've seen gymnasts who spend hours just perfecting handstands go into school cheer and not have a single issue tumble except for the initial adjustment factor because they truly know how to do the skills.

That is ignoring the physics of it a bit. Short version is hard floor and basketball floor put more strain on your joints / bones / whole body. A gymnast who has strengthened their body and is less likely to be injured performing skills on a hard floor. But that doesn't mean miss gymnast will never be hurt performing skills.

I think the biggest issue I am seeing form this discussion is that people are thinking the higher chance of injuries on hard floor is because of technique of the athlete and coaching ability... but no one seems to recognize the surface. Any reason why?

 

[Eyes On The Prize]

If you're talking physics in a debate between hard floor and spring floor, a spring floor is safer in every aspect of the landing.
Let me explain...
Say you have a watermelon. You go to the local pool and you go all the way up to the high dive. You stand at the very edge of the high dive, hold out the watermelon and let it drop into the pool. What happens? Nothing. The watermelon makes a huge splash but other than that, the watermelon comes out unscathed. Now, take that same watermelon, go back up to the high dive and hold the watermelon out again, but this time, let it drop onto the cement right below. What happens? The watermelon shatters on impact. Why? Because the cement does not "give" into the watermelon upon landing. The water, on the other hand does, and that "give" is what saves the watermelon. Lets say the watermelon falls at 9 miles per hour. So when falling on concrete, the acceleration of our watermelon goes from 9mph to 0mph in 0 seconds. When it hits the water, it goes from 9mph to 0mph in something like 0.4 seconds. Although the 0.4 seconds does not seem like a lot, its enough to save the watermelon.
Now what do watermelons have to do with this debate? Switch the cement and water with the hard and spring floors. Granted that both will absorb the impact of the athlete whether they are jumping, tumbling, dancing or falling, the spring floor, with its mat, ply-wood and springs, will extend the time that the acceleration is stopped compared to that of a hard floor, thus saving the athlete from harm.
If you are talking about other aspects of cheer, like the added height of jumping or tumbling or the rebound you get from the spring floor, that's going to be situational. At least the falling issue is going to be somewhat the same all the way around. Whether you fall on your head, knees, back, or arm from a stunt, jump or tumbling pass, the outcome on a spring floor will always be better than the outcome from the hard floor.
Is there another performance surface that is safer than a spring floor? Not to my knowledge because anything softer would inhibit the athletes performance. We just participate in a dangerous sport....

@kingston - is that what you were looking for?

 

[Level5Mom]

I am curious if we polled the teams around the Atlanta area, how many injuries each team has had this season at practices and competitions, and whether they were stunt or tumbling related. I'm willing to be that a vast majority of them are from dropped stunts. In GA (16 girls on a squad) we are working with a scoresheet that allows teams to max out only if you have 4 full ups AND 4 switch ups, and either 4 kick double baskets OR 5 2 man stunts. Considering most high school squads have a large talent disparity from their least experienced to their most experienced girl, this is setting teams up to push for skills that they have no business attempting. Could a spring floor buffer these injuries? I think so....

 

[King]

If you're talking physics in a debate between hard floor and spring floor, a spring floor is safer in every aspect of the landing.
Let me explain...
Say you have a watermelon. You go to the local pool and you go all the way up to the high dive. You stand at the very edge of the high dive, hold out the watermelon and let it drop into the pool. What happens? Nothing. The watermelon makes a huge splash but other than that, the watermelon comes out unscathed. Now, take that same watermelon, go back up to the high dive and hold the watermelon out again, but this time, let it drop onto the cement right below. What happens? The watermelon shatters on impact. Why? Because the cement does not "give" into the watermelon upon landing. The water, on the other hand does, and that "give" is what saves the watermelon. Lets say the watermelon falls at 9 miles per hour. So when falling on concrete, the acceleration of our watermelon goes from 9mph to 0mph in 0 seconds. When it hits the water, it goes from 9mph to 0mph in something like 0.4 seconds. Although the 0.4 seconds does not seem like a lot, its enough to save the watermelon.
Now what do watermelons have to do with this debate? Switch the cement and water with the hard and spring floors. Granted that both will absorb the impact of the athlete whether they are jumping, tumbling, dancing or falling, the spring floor, with its mat, ply-wood and springs, will extend the time that the acceleration is stopped compared to that of a hard floor, thus saving the athlete from harm.
If you are talking about other aspects of cheer, like the added height of jumping or tumbling or the rebound you get from the spring floor, that's going to be situational. At least the falling issue is going to be somewhat the same all the way around. Whether you fall on your head, knees, back, or arm from a stunt, jump or tumbling pass, the outcome on a spring floor will always be better than the outcome from the hard floor.
Is there another performance surface that is safer than a spring floor? Not to my knowledge because anything softer would inhibit the athletes performance. We just participate in a dangerous sport....

@kingston - is that what you were looking for?

Haha, yes. A very un-mathematical way to explain it (I think often the math makes it too unaccessible for the lay person).

Now I do disagree with the dangerous part. I think that is where it comes down to the right coaching WITH the right performance surface. Cheerleading CAN be dangerous if learned, practiced, and performed on the wrong surface.

 

[King]

I am curious if we polled the teams around the Atlanta area, how many injuries each team has had this season at practices and competitions, and whether they were stunt or tumbling related. I'm willing to be that a vast majority of them are from dropped stunts. In GA (16 girls on a squad) we are working with a scoresheet that allows teams to max out only if you have 4 full ups AND 4 switch ups, and either 4 kick double baskets OR 5 2 man stunts. Considering most high school squads have a large talent disparity from their least experienced to their most experienced girl, this is setting teams up to push for skills that they have no business attempting. Could a spring floor buffer these injuries? I think so....

It is a yes.

I would love to use any college (specifically UofL / GymTyme) for a study about practicing on hard floor vs practicing on spring floor. They would be great because they have athletes who have to compete on two surfaces (their college teams which mostly are their open teams). Now, there is an ethical problem with the study because going into it I already 'know' practicing on hard floor will produce more injuries. But until a formal study is done there is no way to 'prove' it besides simple common sense and non-baised physics.

 

[Justacoach]

Another point: If injuries were only the result of insufficient coaching then we would never see injuries at top level gyms. Have we ever seen an injury on the 'best' most representative team from each gym? Can you think of an injury that happened on Cheer Athletics, Cali, WC, CEA, SOT, Brandon, GT, Rays, or any top level gym from their top level team? I can think of plenty... and those teams represent the best in our industry. So either the best in our industry cannot hang... or we need to look at other possible causes.

I can tell your our injuries increase significantly because of high school cheerleading on hard floor. I cannot wait until high school season is over and the injuries stop.

Of course there ae injuries that happen at the biggest gyms with the best coaches. On spring floors or rod floors or tumble traks. But I'd put money down that the number and severity of injuries that occur at these gyms during practice is wayyyy less than school teams or at gyms with less than qualified coaching staffs.

Its all about minimizing risk. Spring floor is part of the equation. I wear a seatbelt in the car but I also don't allow my 13 yr old to drive.

 

[Justacoach]

It is a yes.

I would love to use any college (specifically UofL / GymTyme) for a study about practicing on hard floor vs practicing on spring floor. They would be great because they have athletes who have to compete on two surfaces (their college teams which mostly are their open teams). Now, there is an ethical problem with the study because going into it I already 'know' practicing on hard floor will produce more injuries. But until a formal study is done there is no way to 'prove' it besides simple common sense and non-baised physics.

But is your angle to eliminate school teams? To force them to practice at allstar gyms? To ground bound them? Because I know for a fact that in Florida - most school teams don't even get a regular space to roll out the mats they purchased themselves. Much less a permanent room to have a spring floor set up in.

 

[King]

Of course there ae injuries that happen at the biggest gyms with the best coaches. On spring floors or rod floors or tumble traks. But I'd put money down that the number and severity of injuries that occur at these gyms during practice is wayyyy less than school teams or at gyms with less than qualified coaching staffs.

Its all about minimizing risk. Spring floor is part of the equation. I wear a seatbelt in the car but I also don't allow my 13 yr old to drive.

So, going back to your earlier post, if it is about minimizing risk why is stunting on hard floor minimizing risk in an acceptable way?

 

[cheerheart4life]

As a cheerleader who is on spring and hard floors, I would say that spring floors are DEFINETLY safer. When it comes to stunts, if a girl falls on the ground on her back or head, the spring will give her some protection and not hurt as bad as if a girl fell on a high school cheer mat. Falling on your head or back on a high school cheer mat can be highly dangerous and even fatal. Tumbling wise, a spring floor is easier on the joints and muscles. Hard floor kills ankles, wrists, knees, backs....pretty much the whole body. Sure it can be due to the fact that people don't use technique, but it also is just SO hard doesn't have any give. All the pressue from your body tumbling has no spring to push off of, so your body is jammed straight into the ground.

Injuries happen though. They happen at all gyms, at any given time. High school cheer seems to provide a worse surface and easier way to get injured. Can't wait till State rolls around and my body can rest!

 

[Cheerleaders21]

I think nether spring or non-spring floors are much safer than another. Sure spring floor helps absorb landings and help with higher rebounds but toy can still get the same injuries from both floors. No matter how long you have had a skill you can still mess up your technique that one time or it could just be an over use injury. Spring floors seam safer but are they really that much safer than normal floors when your stunting or tumbling technique is off?

 

[Justacoach]

I think that a school team can safely perform most stunts on a hard floor. (Not talking about the crazy teams in GA that full up and switch up- school teams here are good if they can straight up feet together, pull a pose and full down.) With proper coaching and having teams perform stunts they can hit 10 out of 10 times (or bobble and bring down safely), stunting on hard floor is safe.

So, going back to your earlier post, if it is about minimizing risk why is stunting on hard floor minimizing risk in an acceptable way?

 

[CGAcheer]

Spring is the safest practical surface.

The hard floor is well, hard. Would you rather hit your head on a steering wheel or an air bag?

If you were to much softer than a spring floor you lose the ability to move freely, which would be both impractical and unsafe.

 

[King]

But is your angle to eliminate school teams? To force them to practice at allstar gyms? To ground bound them? Because I know for a fact that in Florida - most school teams don't even get a regular space to roll out the mats they purchased themselves. Much less a permanent room to have a spring floor set up in.

I will turn that comment around: It is worth putting that many kids at risk for injury by not saying that practicing and competing on a hard floor is more risky to KEEP the current high school situation the same?

Fact is cheerleading his amazingly progressed. The skills and level of competition (pushed by all-star) has far exceeded what high schools SHOULD be trying... and if they do try they should not be trying on hard floor.

That doesn't mean high school cheering shouldn't exist, it just means their should be an acceptable level of risk for all high schools... which is probably a good bit more limited on a hard floor. If you compete on spring floor... you can do more skills.

 

[SheCheers]

I'm not an expert or anything but this would be my best guess..
If someone is trained to tumble on spring and just 'whip it out' they really aren't learning the technique to do the skill but rather the technique to use the spring to help them out. So when they go to hard floor, it's a lot more difficult because they don't have that extra 'oomph' to help them. It really all just goes back to the progressions of learning tumbling.
I've seen gymnasts who spend hours just perfecting handstands go into school cheer and not have a single issue tumble except for the initial adjustment factor because they truly know how to do the skills.

I think what your not considering is the long term effects of that pounding on the gymnats's body doing all that tumbling. Spring floor is obviously (to me) safer all the way. I took my cp out of a tumbling class where she was having to throw skills on the carpet mat floor. I do not want her doing that week after week on the harder, less shock absorbing surface.