All-Star Substance Free Programs

[Official OWECheer]

Gotta admit that every time I see this thread title I think of a couple of cheer programs that have no substance.


The Fierce Board: aka Cheernado!

That sounded like a pun...

 

[King]

I think anything proposed has to be effective and actually do something. DARE type programs are highly ineffective because it takes the same stance on different substances. Marijuana is 5 years (ish) away from being legal across the US. It takes away the credibility of the program if they try to say all these things take the same inherent risk in use. I think testing for some high level substances (cocaine, heroin, meth) is the most possible because it is some of the most dangerous and most detectable but that would just keep it from happening at Worlds. Lowering the user of those substances would need to happen with the gym / college program throughout the year.

PEDs, however, are something the USASF could test for at Worlds, and possibly should. If we want to be in the running for Olympic sports one day this is something that will be faced. I think you could test the whole team that wins OR spot test the ones who are the most likely visual candidates. You cannot have a coach get to choose who gets tested because it is in their best interest to put out there those who are clean. But if you have been around competitive athletics enough you can tell who is most likely using and who is the most appropriate to test.

All it takes is one person to get caught the first year and the next year looks completely different. ICE is a good example with the hugging. And the nature and look of the sport will change completely if college and allstar start testing. Baseball went from a hitters game back to a pitching game. Cheer would have a lot less stumblers if we started testing. That means more specialty and more chance for people to come in late in the game and learn to stunt well.

 

[catlady]

Any program or testing is only as good as the people enforcing the rules. I have witnessed a HS coach turning a blind eye to a flyer that spent much of her school day high. We have all witnessed coaches/owners turning a blind eye to PED's and "recreational drugs" on professional teams. And, unfortunately, we can't exclude the fact that some of these parents and coaches are "recreational" users, as well. Everyone has to play a role in this process to make testing worthwhile and keep the integrity, but the USASF has the least "emotional" attachment to the athlete and ultimately should be in control of enforcing the rules. Gym owners, coaches and parents should then make sure the "government" is enforcing the rules fairly across all programs.

On a side note, it may not be the USASF who will demand testing, but the insurance companies. I am actually kind of surprised Disney's insurance company doesn't require all large sport groups coming onto their grounds to have some type of testing program in place.

For our lawyers out there, if a child is hurt as a result of another child using an illegal substance and they are on Disney grounds (or any venue) practicing on grass or performing, who is ultimately going to be held responsible for their injuries? In my opinion, here lies the answer as to who will be mandating the rules in the future.

 

[MissCongeniality]

Any program or testing is only as good as the people enforcing the rules. I have witnessed a HS coach turning a blind eye to a flyer that spent much of her school day high. We have all witnessed coaches/owners turning a blind eye to PED's and "recreational drugs" on professional teams. And, unfortunately, we can't exclude the fact that some of these parents and coaches are "recreational" users, as well. Everyone has to play a role in this process to make testing worthwhile and keep the integrity, but the USASF has the least "emotional" attachment to the athlete and ultimately should be in control of enforcing the rules. Gym owners, coaches and parents should then make sure the "government" is enforcing the rules fairly across all programs.

On a side note, it may not be the USASF who will demand testing, but the insurance companies. I am actually kind of surprised Disney's insurance company doesn't require all large sport groups coming onto their grounds to have some type of testing program in place.

For our lawyers out there, if a child is hurt as a result of another child using an illegal substance and they are on Disney grounds (or any venue) practicing on grass or performing, who is ultimately going to be held responsible for their injuries? In my opinion, here lies the answer as to who will be mandating the rules in the future.

So, devil's advocate here (because I agree with you) but I see a couple of potential problems with the Disney thing. 1) once the child is so injured that the parent puts down the kool aid and hires an attorney...how do you prove the injury occurred as the result of an athlete under the influence...unless it was the injured athlete her/himself (since blood tests would likely be done at the hospital). Parent would have to be so clear thinking at time of accident to immediately hire attorney who immediately demands drug testing and even that would come with so many layers of legal red tape that it might not be done in time. 2) Disney has access to top notch attorneys and likely has a strong contract that would basically throw the blame onto the athletes, gym, usasf (same as other entities who use Disney property) if something ever did get to a courtroom. 3) even if Disney had to throw a measly 1M or so to make the problem go away... Is it worth a child paralyzed for the rest of their life? Or dead? Do we, as an industry (and yes, I include parents as part of that industry because face it...we pay the bills), really have to wait until something like this happens before changes will be made?

 

[MissCongeniality]

D

I think anything proposed has to be effective and actually do something. DARE type programs are highly ineffective because it takes the same stance on different substances. Marijuana is 5 years (ish) away from being legal across the US. It takes away the credibility of the program if they try to say all these things take the same inherent risk in use. I think testing for some high level substances (cocaine, heroin, meth) is the most possible because it is some of the most dangerous and most detectable but that would just keep it from happening at Worlds. Lowering the user of those substances would need to happen with the gym / college program throughout the year.

PEDs, however, are something the USASF could test for at Worlds, and possibly should. If we want to be in the running for Olympic sports one day this is something that will be faced. I think you could test the whole team that wins OR spot test the ones who are the most likely visual candidates. You cannot have a coach get to choose who gets tested because it is in their best interest to put out there those who are clean. But if you have been around competitive athletics enough you can tell who is most likely using and who is the most appropriate to test.

All it takes is one person to get caught the first year and the next year looks completely different. ICE is a good example with the hugging. And the nature and look of the sport will change completely if college and allstar start testing. Baseball went from a hitters game back to a pitching game. Cheer would have a lot less stumblers if we started testing. That means more specialty and more chance for people to come in late in the game and learn to stunt well.

So devil's advocate again here... So because it is legal (when it happens) you would be ok with an athlete stunting your daughter while totally stoned? Or tumbling stoned across the floor at the same time as her?

 

[kristenthegreat]

So, devil's advocate here (because I agree with you) but I see a couple of potential problems with the Disney thing. 1) once the child is so injured that the parent puts down the kool aid and hires an attorney...how do you prove the injury occurred as the result of an athlete under the influence...unless it was the injured athlete her/himself (since blood tests would likely be done at the hospital). Parent would have to be so clear thinking at time of accident to immediately hire attorney who immediately demands drug testing and even that would come with so many layers of legal red tape that it might not be done in time. 2) Disney has access to top notch attorneys and likely has a strong contract that would basically throw the blame onto the athletes, gym, usasf (same as other entities who use Disney property) if something ever did get to a courtroom. 3) even if Disney had to throw a measly 1M or so to make the problem go away... Is it worth a child paralyzed for the rest of their life? Or dead? Do we, as an industry (and yes, I include parents as part of that industry because face it...we pay the bills), really have to wait until something like this happens before changes will be made?

With a hair follicle test, they have 90 days to get a reading on most substances. So there's that.

I'm just trying to imagine doing Olympic gymnastics drunk, and it's seriously hurting my stomach.

 

[MissCongeniality]

With a hair follicle test, they have 90 days to get a reading on most substances. So there's that.

I'm just trying to imagine doing Olympic gymnastics drunk, and it's seriously hurting my stomach.

Uneven Bars.... hung over even...

 

[kristenthegreat]

Uneven Bars.... hung over even...

THAT'S WHAT I WAS THINKING?! Every time you do a giant, you'd be MISERABLE!!

I do think random testing at worlds is a possible thing. Maybe to make it more feasible, they only test the teams who make it through to semis? 2 athletes per team? At least for the first year they do it. Work with a smaller sample group.

 

[ScottyB]

D

So devil's advocate again here... So because it is legal (when it happens) you would be ok with an athlete stunting your daughter while totally stoned? Or tumbling stoned across the floor at the same time as her?

Bad analogy. Drinking is already legal and we all know @King or any other parent would not want their child stunting/tumbling with another athlete who is inebriated. This could happen in any gym already but we don't see breathalyzers in gyms

 

[King]

D

So devil's advocate again here... So because it is legal (when it happens) you would be ok with an athlete stunting your daughter while totally stoned? Or tumbling stoned across the floor at the same time as her?

Straw man fallacy is not a good defense or playing devils advocate. There is plenty of states that are legal that we wouldn't want someone to participate in cheerleading while in.

 

[King]

Bad analogy. Drinking is already legal and we all know @King or any other parent would not want their child stunting/tumbling with another athlete who is inebriated. This could happen in any gym already but we don't see breathalyzers in gyms

Hah, just saw this. Agreed.

 

[catlady]

So, devil's advocate here (because I agree with you) but I see a couple of potential problems with the Disney thing. 1) once the child is so injured that the parent puts down the kool aid and hires an attorney...how do you prove the injury occurred as the result of an athlete under the influence...unless it was the injured athlete her/himself (since blood tests would likely be done at the hospital). Parent would have to be so clear thinking at time of accident to immediately hire attorney who immediately demands drug testing and even that would come with so many layers of legal red tape that it might not be done in time. 2) Disney has access to top notch attorneys and likely has a strong contract that would basically throw the blame onto the athletes, gym, usasf (same as other entities who use Disney property) if something ever did get to a courtroom. 3) even if Disney had to throw a measly 1M or so to make the problem go away... Is it worth a child paralyzed for the rest of their life? Or dead? Do we, as an industry (and yes, I include parents as part of that industry because face it...we pay the bills), really have to wait until something like this happens before changes will be made?

I never once said we should wait, but if we do, IMO it will be the party responsible for the largest financial hit in the circumstance to take control.

As far as your questions:

1) The parents of the injured wouldn't be thinking clearly enough, but the USASF, gym owners, coaches, other parents, and Disney would. It's amazing how quickly "CYA" comes into play when an accident happens. Also, if partying is as prevalent as you all say it is at World's, out of thousands of kids, one or two are bound to come forward, especially, if it is a good friend whose life or quality of life is on the line.

2) Disney does have good lawyers, that is why I'm surprised they haven't already a policy in place if this much partying is going on, on their grounds. If the USASF is signing a contract that is stating Disney holds no liability in these circumstances, then USASF may pay the price. That is why I directed my initial question as to "who would be responsible" to the lawyers on Fierce Board.

3) I'll revert back to my initial statement that I never once said we should wait, but if we do, it will be the party responsible for the largest financial hit (more specifically, their insurance company) that will want a testing program mandated.

 

[MissCongeniality]

I never once said we should wait, but if we do, IMO it will be the party responsible for the largest financial hit in the circumstance to take control.

As far as your questions:

1) The parents of the injured wouldn't be thinking clearly enough, but the USASF, gym owners, coaches, other parents, and Disney would. It's amazing how quickly "CYA" comes into play when an accident happens. Also, if partying is as prevalent as you all say it is at World's, out of thousands of kids, one or two are bound to come forward, especially, if it is a good friend whose life or quality of life is on the line.

2) Disney does have good lawyers, that is why I'm surprised they haven't already a policy in place if this much partying is going on, on their grounds. If the USASF is signing a contract that is stating Disney holds no liability in these circumstances, then USASF may pay the price. That is why I directed my initial question as to "who would be responsible" to the lawyers on Fierce Board.

3) I'll revert back to my initial statement that I never once said we should wait, but if we do, it will be the party responsible for the largest financial hit (more specifically, their insurance company) that will want a testing program mandated.

Sorry... I never meant to infer you were for waiting... That was more at the industry as a whole.

 

[MissCongeniality]

Straw man fallacy is not a good defense or playing devils advocate. There is plenty of states that are legal that we wouldn't want someone to participate in cheerleading while in.

So yes, I thought of that before I posted and I agree. I'm just saying that if we are going to drug test...it needs to be an across the board test (including marijuana right there with all of the other "illegal" ones) because it doesn't matter whether something is legal or illegal...if it has the potential to alter your state of mind/behavior/performance in a way that even slightly puts my child (or the child taking the "drug") at greater risk of injury out on that floor... You shouldn't be doing it.

ETA: as the parent of older teens/adults, I have been in the trenches and had many a late night "discussion" over drinking/marijuana etc. But, I am also the parent of a CP who had to share a tumbling pass one year with a young man who was well known for his philosophy that he "tumbled better" when stoned or drunk. Ummmmm no....his tumbling was atrocious! He couldn't go in a straight line and it was a running joke that you did not want to be the one to have to tumble with him. Two CPs were hit and during the short time my CP had to be the one, I white knuckled it with my fellow moms. (On a positive note...it motivated her to up her game tumbling wise so she didn't have to share the pass with him)

 

[cheerisloving]

Everyone keeps brining in the safety aspect into it, what about the health issue with drug use in athletes? Hardcore drugs will ruin your body and make it difficult for you to perform well and safe in any sport. What can the USASF do to encourage drug free environment is more feasible than catching athletes under the influence, as most are minors and there would be a whole legal debacle for the first Suzy on Elite Elite Allstars caught with drugs in her system.