All-Star Suggestions For Improving Scoring

[cheer36mom]

Being in the northeast we seem to go up against the same teams over and over....it is amazing how some judges seem to see things from comp to comp...one team in paricular we outskill on every area of the scoresheet but at 2 of the comps we ran neck and neck ,with us winning by a small margin....and at other comps we totally blew them away (I'm comparing similarly executed routines)...so how does a team with say half the standing tumbling almost tie you in that part of the score sheet????? Confusing.

depends on the scoresheet for instance jam brands score sheet does give a quantity score so say you have a level 4 team of 20 kids and only 5 of them have standing tucks well if those same 5 kids do a standing tuck 4 times each throughout the routine you will max out in quantity so its easy to score the same as a team with full squad with that score sheet

 

[King]

I think the fact that so few gym spend a significant chunk of time is more a reflection of the athletes' complete lack of interest in jumping than how "difficult" it is physically. Generally, it is viewed (at least in our part of the world) as a technical part of cheer that few of the kids enjoy doing. In general, they look forward to stunts, tumbling, and dance because they think it is fun, while they dread working on jumps. We work on them anyway because they are still part of the scoring. I get that they are a traditional part of cheer, but so were pom pons, saddle oxfords, and megaphones and those things have thankfully been phased out of all star.

I would agree that it is by far the hardest to get the athletes excited to work on.

A couple points:

1. Jumps are fun in the right atmosphere. while the kids at our gym may not like 45 minutes of jump conditioning in the summer (cause who LOVES conditioning) we don't find its hard to get them to work on jumping cause a good bit of them enjoy it. It is all just about making it part of your culture. There are quite a few gyms that dont like anything BUT stunting (there is even a college competition built around it... UCA!). So going off the culture of one gym as to what is important doesn't make sense to me.

2. Jumps are an amazing equalizer for everyone. If you have lots of double fulls but at not good at jumping that gives a way for the no so many double full teams to catch up. It makes it a more intricate chess match... where do you spend your time? Jump synchronization is something that can only be worked as a group while tumbling can be worked on its own. The more aspects there are in cheer you have to excell at the HARDER it is to win by dominating one category.

3. Jumps are probably one of the best indicators of cheer ability. If you find someone who is a great jumper they are most likely (we won't say 100% but darn near close to it) a really good cheerleader overall. Jumps are EXTREMELY technical so if they have the ability to master a jump they can probably stunt, dance, have some decent tumbling.

4. It is the only time on the scoresheet you are judged by all the athletes doing the exact same thing. You are judging their ability to do the exact same physical skill, in unison, perfectly. It aint easy.

5. Last, I think you will get your wish that jumps will be worth less.... as well as tumbling. Judging by the intent of the Worlds scoresheets (but not the execution) jumps and tumbling are going to be worth less next year.. everywhere. No more lots of doubles will win. They want stunting! Should I go into a whole tizzy about why making tumbling worth less is a terrible idea and bad for cheerleading gyms who want to make money?

 

[BlueCat]

I was not suggesting that jumps were easy or that it didn't take athleticism to be good at. No gym sets out to intentionally make jumps not fun for their athletes, it is just a nature of the activity. We try to put a spin on it, but when your kids groan every time you mention the word jump, you end up doing the least you feel you can get away with and still score high enough to negate it as a major disadvantage.

You mentioned that only 3 gyms are good at it. I can certainly understand why one of those 3 gyms would not want jumps to be devalued. However, I think the fact that only 3 gyms care enough about it to focus on it is pretty good evidence of typical opinion of the modern industry. Just because something used to be an equal part of cheer does not automatically mean that it should be that way for eternity.

I'm not suggesting that we get away with them entirely. (although that would actually be my personal preference). I just don't think that valuing jumps as highly as partner stunts, pyramids, or running tumbling which generally have more appeal to both the athletes and the audience makes much sense to me at all.

 

[King]

I was not suggesting that jumps were easy or that it didn't take athleticism to be good at. No gym sets out to intentionally make jumps not fun for their athletes, it is just a nature of the activity. We try to put a spin on it, but when your kids groan every time you mention the word jump, you end up doing the least you feel you can get away with and still score high enough to negate it as a major disadvantage.

You mentioned that only 3 gyms are good at it. I can certainly understand why one of those 3 gyms would not want jumps to be devalued. However, I think the fact that only 3 gyms care enough about it to focus on it is pretty good evidence of typical opinion of the modern industry. Just because something used to be an equal part of cheer does not automatically mean that it should be that way for eternity.

I'm not suggesting that we get away with them entirely. (although that would actually be my personal preference). I just don't think that valuing jumps as highly as partner stunts, pyramids, or running tumbling which generally have more appeal to both the athletes and the audience makes much sense to me at all.

If jumps are devalued then we will adjust. We will not stop practicing them, but we will pick our teams different, we will practice differently, and we will still win. If the scoresheet suddenly started only rewarding fierceness, ponytail whips, and shimmies then we would be the FIERCEST gym around. (gawd help us if it does) There isn't a stubborn bone of pride in our bodies not willing to do what it takes to win. It isn't about winning our way, it is about winning. I do see the industry reaching its potential faster though. If there are less categories to excel in needed to win, than it is easier to max out.

While it might seem selfish to want jumps to be equal valued, I see it the same way I saw large going down to 30. Good for the industry.

 

[hopskipandjump]

No, the Worlds deduction sheet hasn't been published online. At least no one I know has been able to find it.

I am confused...does this mean no one knows what deductions will be going into Worlds? Only when or if they get one once they compete? Please clarify for me.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I am confused...does this mean no one knows what deductions will be going into Worlds? Only when or if they get one once they compete? Please clarify for me.

Yes, that is what it means.

 

[hopskipandjump]

Yes, that is what it means.

holy cow. thats crazy. Not to start drama.... but wow.

 

[hopskipandjump]

If jumps are devalued then we will adjust. We will not stop practicing them, but we will pick our teams different, we will practice differently, and we will still win. If the scoresheet suddenly started only rewarding fierceness, ponytail whips, and shimmies then we would be the FIERCEST gym around. (gawd help us if it does) There isn't a stubborn bone of pride in our bodies not willing to do what it takes to win. It isn't about winning our way, it is about winning. I do see the industry reaching its potential faster though. If there are less categories to excel in needed to win, than it is easier to max out.

While it might seem selfish to want jumps to be equal valued, I see it the same way I saw large going down to 30. Good for the industry.

Not necessarily responding to what you are saying here Kingston, but I was APPALLED at how many ugly jumps there were at Worlds. I find it depressing. A beautiful jump section really stands out to me. And so do ugly ones.

 

[redsmom]

Yes, that is what it means.

Wow, if I was a coach I wouldn't like that at all. Seems like part of a good coaching is being able to evaluate a skills value to the routine vs. the potential risk (or deduction). Is this unique to worlds, seems like deductions are published for most if not all the major nationals?

 

[King]

Not necessarily responding to what you are saying here Kingston, but I was APPALLED at how many ugly jumps there were at Worlds. I find it depressing. A beautiful jump section really stands out to me. And so do ugly ones.

Yes, and even by a lot of teams that were in the top 3. On a scoresheet like Worlds its almost moot to even have jumps. Did you do them? cool. check. everybody gets a 4 out or 5.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Wow, if I was a coach I wouldn't like that at all. Seems like part of a good coaching is being able to evaluate a skills value to the routine vs. the potential risk (or deduction). Is this unique to worlds, seems like deductions are published for most if not all the major nationals?

Cheersport, JAM Brands, and Varsity Brands publish deduction sheets with their score sheets. I haven't looked for other events, excluding Worlds.

 

[BlueCat]

If jumps are devalued then we will adjust. We will not stop practicing them, but we will pick our teams different, we will practice differently, and we will still win. If the scoresheet suddenly started only rewarding fierceness, ponytail whips, and shimmies then we would be the FIERCEST gym around. (gawd help us if it does) There isn't a stubborn bone of pride in our bodies not willing to do what it takes to win. It isn't about winning our way, it is about winning. I do see the industry reaching its potential faster though. If there are less categories to excel in needed to win, than it is easier to max out.

While it might seem selfish to want jumps to be equal valued, I see it the same way I saw large going down to 30. Good for the industry.

Perhaps my previous post's intent was misunderstood. We have discussed before that changing the scoring rubric will have much less effect on the traditionally strong gyms than people believe. I have no doubt that if the jump category went away entirely that Stingrays would simply up their game in other areas and still have the same level of success without missing a beat. My point was more that the fact that so few gyms choose to work on it extensively is somewhat of an indicator of it's popularity.

 

[King]

Perhaps my previous post's intent was misunderstood. We have discussed before that changing the scoring rubric will have much less effect on th traditionally strong gyms as people believe. I have not doubt that if the jump category went away entirely that Stingrays would simply up their game in other areas and still have the same level of success without missing a beat. My point was more that the fact that so few gyms choose to work on it exensively is somewhat of an indiator of it's popularity.

I would point the same is done with special teams in football. It is one of the least worked on parts, but it can be game changing. The more equal part intricacies in cheer the harder it makes it. I point to the winter Olympics where the american won Gold. He didn't have a quad... but he worked the other parts of the scoresheet and won. Why should such a small part of a routine determine the winner? Why should 30 seconds of stunting determine the better team? Why even do the other 2:00 minutes? Why not make it hard as heck and the full 2:30 matter? There are so many growing pains that cheer is going through that we could look at gymnastics AND ice skating and take a lot of guidance from.

 

[hopskipandjump]

Yes, and even by a lot of teams that were in the top 3. On a scoresheet like Worlds its almost moot to even have jumps. Did you do them? cool. check. everybody gets a 4 out or 5.

You see; this is why I have so many questions about the legitimacy of the sport. Clearly, there are quite a few things that need to be fixed with our system as it stands. I have heard so much about how few resources and people there are in our federation, but if we want cheer to grow and stay relevant, then some things need to change. So, let me understand this, the jump section at Worlds was probably 10 points with a breakdown for difficulty and one for technique? Is that correct? Clearly that should have made a HUGE difference in how teams finally placed, but that didn't happen....

 

[King]

You see; this is why I have so many questions about the legitimacy of the sport. Clearly, there are quite a few things that need to be fixed with our system as it stands. I have heard so much about how few resources and people there are in our federation, but if we want cheer to grow and stay relevant, then some things need to change. So, let me understand this, the jump section at Worlds was probably 10 points with a breakdown for difficulty and one for technique? Is that correct? Clearly that should have made a HUGE difference in how teams finally placed, but that didn't happen....

Execution score was skewed at Worlds. It wasn't execution as much as it didnt fail.