All-Star Teams With Illegal Elements Winning A Worlds Bid?

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Mar 31, 2010
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After reading the thread about gym tyme, I did a little research.

Per the WSF website
* 1st Full Paid Bid – This bid will be awarded to the Division Champion with highest “Percentage of Perfection” score in the following divi- sions:
Senior Divisions – Level 5
Small Senior All Girl Large Senior All Girl Small Senior Limited Coed Large Senior Limited Coed Senior Semi-Limited Coed Senior Unlimited Coed
International Divisions – Level 5
International Open All-Girl Level 5 International Open Coed Level 5

*2nd & 3rd Full Paid Bids – These bids will be awarded to the Division Champions with the 2nd & 3rd highest “Percentage of Perfection” scores in the following divisions:
Senior Divisions – Level 5
Small Senior All Girl Large Senior All Girl Small Senior Limited Coed Large Senior Limited Coed Senior Semi-Limited Coed Senior Unlimited Coed

Since gym tyme IOC5 had the highest score they were awarded the 1st paid bid. BUT, if they were called for the illegal stunt they would have moved from the highest scoring team also making them ineligible for a paid bid (see bid declaration above).


This would have made the new bid winners:
1. Kentucky Cats
2 Gym Tyme semi-limited coed
3. Midwest large limited ( by my calculations)

I am curious to see what WSF thinks.
 
I fully believe that if you perform an intentionally illegal skill the team should be disqualified from that competition. I think that legality judges should be in the warm up gyms monitoring, and giving teams a warning and the opportunity to substitute something different. If the team still performs that intentionally illegal skill on the floor, they are DQd.

An intentionally illegal skill is when a coach puts a skill into a routine despite the fact that the skill is illegal for that level/division. Sometimes performance mistakes happen that change a legal skill into an illegal one. If releases need to be braced, but the bracing stunt fell and the release goes anyway, that's not intentional.
 
I fully believe that if you perform an intentionally illegal skill the team should be disqualified from that competition. I think that legality judges should be in the warm up gyms monitoring, and giving teams a warning and the opportunity to substitute something different. If the team still performs that intentionally illegal skill on the floor, they are DQd.

An intentionally illegal skill is when a coach puts a skill into a routine despite the fact that the skill is illegal for that level/division. Sometimes performance mistakes happen that change a legal skill into an illegal one. If releases need to be braced, but the bracing stunt fell and the release goes anyway, that's not intentional.

The phrasing "Intentionally illegal" implies the coach knew the skill was illegal but put it in anyway. How can you prove it's intentional? What if it's an accident and someone forgot a rule? When I was in college we did extensions in our 45 second routine at NCA Nationals - extended stunts are illegal in that, it's all about spirit. It wasn't intentional, just an accident, and while that is an easy fix if someone pointed it out to us in warmups, changing a whole pyramid might not be. Coaches should know the rules, but accidents happen, do you think it's really fair to DQ a team for their coaches mistake? It's not even possible to prove it was intentional, any coach would say it was an accident. But that's what penalties are for.
 
"Intentional" meaning it was not a performance error. Putting an illegal element in, regardless of whether they KNEW it was illegal or not is a true penalty. It is their JOB to know. Performance errors result in "unintentional" illegalities. Not meaning they put it in knowing, but that the skill, performed correctly, was illegal.
 
"Intentional" meaning it was not a performance error. Putting an illegal element in, regardless of whether they KNEW it was illegal or not is a true penalty. It is their JOB to know. Performance errors result in "unintentional" illegalities. Not meaning they put it in knowing, but that the skill, performed correctly, was illegal.

I know that that's what MissBee meant, but to me, intentional implies that it was done on purpose, not as an accident. Again, a penalty, fine, there should be a deduction, even a big one. But should a team be DQ'ed for their coaches error?
 
I don't think that the team should be held responsible for the judges deaming what they were doing legal. Say they had competed it at NCA Nashville and it was said then it was illegal (by the judges) but they still did the stunt (at WSF) and won a bid then sure take away their bid and championship. BUT they were not informed at NCA or WSF that the stunt is illegal (which Les hasn't gotten back to say that it is illegal) so they clearly are under the impression the stunt they are doing is legal. That in my opinion would be against the judges at those competitions that should have known originally it was not a legal stunt yet let it pass.
 
So my opinion: It is the responsibility of the coach to make sure all stunts are legal.

If a stunt is performed that is illegal at a competition and the competition misses it, the competition is at fault.

I was just helping people out so they didnt get called for it later.
 
Illegal stunts getting missed happens fairly often, unfortunately. It is difficult for the legality judge to see an analyze every element of every routine. However, the idea that once you have competed something and "gotten away with it" you now have immunity from getting penalized at a later competition is silly.

"But officer, you can't give me a speeding ticket - I was driving this fast yesterday and didn't get pulled over."
 
Illegal stunts getting missed happens fairly often, unfortunately. It is difficult for the legality judge to see an analyze every element of every routine. However, the idea that once you have competed something and "gotten away with it" you now have immunity from getting penalized at a later competition is silly.

"But officer, you can't give me a speeding ticket - I was driving this fast yesterday and didn't get pulled over."

Perfect example of this: Last year we competed the same pyramid at three different competitions, and Worlds, yet did not find that an element was illegal until Worlds. The penalty judge who caught it was the same one who missed it at a previous comp! It probably happens more than you think.

I'm not saying that illegal elements are OK, just saying that it is possible for slips to happen (both by coaches & by competition companies!)

I do agree with kingston that if the competition misses it, they are at fault.

Just think: if the first, or second competition we competed at (or third) caught it, we would have fixed it & had no problem at Worlds! Having competed it all year, we didn't even realize we were doing anything wrong.
 
Sometimes it's hard to figure out what is legal and illegal just by reading the rules because they don't cover everything.

Actually this brings up a question with me, I'll create the scenario to make it less confusing.
in level 5: Say a girl starts in a half, she braces both hands on top of another girl's stomach (who is in a backbend in a stunt), and then does a front flip where she is caught by another group. What is the rule on the amount of people that need to catch that flyer?

I ask this because we performed the skill in a pyramid in 2009, and on one side, there were 3 catchers and on the other side there were 2, and we were told it was illegal to catch with 2 catchers and that we needed to add a 3rd catcher to the other side. Then, I was to another gym who was performing a similar skill, except it was a girl in a smush (same height) with contact with 2 hands where the flyer flipped over and they had 2 catchers. I made a comment on the legality of the catch and they said they performed it at every competition the previous year (pretty much the same competitions we went to), and there was never a comment made.

What is the real rule on catchers?
 
Most competition companies have a procedure where you submit a video of a stunt or skill for them to review BEFORE the competition. They have a legality judge watch it and determine if it is legal or illegal. If they determine that it is legal, they send you a letter stating that they reviewed it and AS PERFORMED IN THE VIDEO the skill is legal. If they go to that company's events and a legality judge deducts for that skill, the coach/gym owner can show that letter to the head judge and the deduction will be removed. Now, you would have to do this for each different company that you use, but better safe than sorry.

Coaches are paid to know the rules and keep their teams safe and legal. For a college coach to mess up on something at Nationals, it wouldn't be unheard of for the AD to fire the coach. A coach was fired because there were academically ineligible athletes on the team, even though according to UCA they were academically eligible (it was a long confusing situation). In the All Star world, I'm a parent paying good money for my child to be on their team. If my child's team is doing illegal skills in competition-I'm going to start looking for a new gym.
 
Sometimes it's hard to figure out what is legal and illegal just by reading the rules because they don't cover everything.

Actually this brings up a question with me, I'll create the scenario to make it less confusing.
in level 5: Say a girl starts in a half, she braces both hands on top of another girl's stomach (who is in a backbend in a stunt), and then does a front flip where she is caught by another group. What is the rule on the amount of people that need to catch that flyer?

I ask this because we performed the skill in a pyramid in 2009, and on one side, there were 3 catchers and on the other side there were 2, and we were told it was illegal to catch with 2 catchers and that we needed to add a 3rd catcher to the other side. Then, I was to another gym who was performing a similar skill, except it was a girl in a smush (same height) with contact with 2 hands where the flyer flipped over and they had 2 catchers. I made a comment on the legality of the catch and they said they performed it at every competition the previous year (pretty much the same competitions we went to), and there was never a comment made.

What is the real rule on catchers?

3 catchers...you need one on each side and one at head/neck.
 
Illegal stunts getting missed happens fairly often, unfortunately. It is difficult for the legality judge to see an analyze every element of every routine. However, the idea that once you have competed something and "gotten away with it" you now have immunity from getting penalized at a later competition is silly.

"But officer, you can't give me a speeding ticket - I was driving this fast yesterday and didn't get pulled over."
If I had a dime for every time I heard, "but last week at XYZ I didn't get told it was illegal," I would be a very rich woman and replying to this thread from my yacht in Greece.
The reality is that, just like panel judging, coaching & performing as an athlete...it comes down to people and mistakes can be made...at the same time, the rule process & general understanding is SOOOO much better and clearer than where it was even 2 years ago that I see a decline of actual violations every year. I'm glad to see the general level of understanding in the industry is so much stronger...now that new rules come into play I hope it stays that way!
 
Hah this happens at NCA all the time, I've heard some horror stories of teams getting slapped with deductions for illegal skills that they've gotten away with at local competitions all year. I believe there should be a lot more accountability at smaller competitions for legality judges because in my experience you can get away with a lot.
 
While it is unfortunate that some teams don't find out something is illegal until it's too late, it is ultimately a coaches responsibility to know the rules for their team. Considering a coach sees every detail of a routine exponentially more times than a safety judge will, the coach should be held to an even higher standard of ummm..."understanding" the routine than a legality judge.
 
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