All-Star The death of the Large Divisions

[wondervvivi]

I think it's so sad that there are only two teams left in Large Coed. Do you think Steel, Cali Coed, Coed Elite or even Snowed will ever make a comeback in this division?

We still have a few Large Allgirl Teams but it would be so amazing to see F5 again or if Topgun would make an Large Allgirl. Or even California Allstars, I believe they had an Large Allgirl Team in one season.

 

[catlady]

I may be wrong, however, I believe the age grid with Open and Global may have impacted many of the gyms and they way they structured their teams. I looked at Stingrays Open, Intl Global and Sr Coed Teams (I did not include Apple, Neon, Peach, Orange) and they currently have:

This years Open, Intl Global, and L6 Sr Co :
Purple (L6 Sr Co Sm)
Steel (L6 Sr Co Md)
Electric (L6 Intl Global Co)

Versus last year:
Apple (L6 Sr Open)-This team is now L6 Sr XSm
Purple (L6 Sr Co Sm)- Same as last year
Steel (L6 Sr Co Lg)-Medium this year
Electric (L6 Intl Global Co)-Same as last year
Cobalt (L6 Intl Global)-? In Aug they put it out on X to see if there was interest
Rust (L7 Intl Open Co Lg)- On X, they said they were taking the year off

I don't believe their Open and Intl Global teams ever had a lot of Sr aged athletes on them, but I do believe there were probably enough too impact team structure this year. The reason I believe it was the age grid, is it didn't impact their lower level teams at all. "Yes" I do believe the teams you mentioned will make a comeback in Large Coed, but it may take some time.

 

[NJ Coach]

The Large divisions have been dying for over 10 years. It just isn't feasible for most gyms at this point.

 

[catlady]

The Large divisions have been dying for over 10 years. It just isn't feasible for most gyms at this point.

If you have time, could you share your thoughts on why you feel its dying? Is it because high school aged athletes often stop or move onto new, different, or HS sports? Is it more strategic for a gym to field a small and medium versus a large?

Solely from a parent/athlete perspective, I can see how having a higher level athlete would impact parents from increased travel expenses, high medical deductibles, and higher time commitments. From an athlete perspective I can see how the continually rising bar could physically, socially, and mentally impact them.

 

[NJ Coach]

It's extremely difficult to have 30+ kids with that level of skill. Taking coed out of the conversation, because it's always been hard to find that many boys.
Look at Large All Girl before Restricted 5 was a thing. The last time you had to qualify to day 2 was (I think) 2008 or 9. But, there were only maybe 5 or 6 teams that were truly competitive. Of those, the top 4 were almost always Panthers, Stars, SE, and F5. Yes, the division had more than 10 teams, but none of those other teams had the quantity of skills that the top teams had.

Teams were creating large teams with athletes that didn't have maxed out skills.
Then the restricted level was created. Gyms had the ability to create teams with athletes that had level 5 skills, but weren't maxed out yet. This allowed gyms to have a place for those athletes, and still create a competitive Worlds team. Small all girl was always the deepest division, and this just helped create more. LAG suffered, but the teams it lost weren't teams that were vying for the podium.

Enter Medium. Gyms no longer had to go large if they had more worlds caliber athletes than a small team allowed. They no longer just had to add athletes in order to match the top teams in stunts etc. Before Medium, some gyms would create a large team just to be guaranteed a Finals spot. Once the divisions expanded to include a middle ground, those gyms suddenly became competitive in the new division.

The LAG teams that have dominated the division, still dominate the division. It's not easy to compete with them. They have a long history of success. Athletes travel to them, they aren't reliant on just pulling athletes from their existing talent pool. They don't have to reinvent the wheel. They just keep going. It's almost impossible to compete with that. It's much easier to create competitive smaller teams.

 

[UCFKnights07]

Before Medium, some gyms would create a large team just to be guaranteed a Finals spot.

i feel like i remember WAY back in the day people talking about this and debating over it... (maybe not on here, but definitely in youtube comments once videos were uploaded.) That some teams went/stayed large, cause it was a guaranteed two days worth of competing. And gyms/parents alike wanted to get their money's worth. Also the allure of it being one of the most watched/anticipated divisions that everyone waited for, was worth it, even if it meant never reaching the top 3.
Granted i dont know how much actual truth is in that, but looking back now, i wouldnt doubt it.

 

[Starfire]

I believe it’s due to the gym expansions.

Example- instead of having to relocate out of state to a centralized location, now there are smaller gyms of the same program all over the country.

Also, more and more divisions.

 

[LittleMissA17]

I'm gonna be honest, I hated the increase in divisions that worlds had. I was able to buy XS at the beginning because it was reserved for smaller gyms who due to having a smaller pool could finally field a worlds team, but then it turned into the bigger gyms who already had the talent just going "oh cool guess we can field an extra team." And then restricted and NT came into play. NT only made sense in the HS setting since sometimes states or schools would restrict you from tumbling, and for years people who weren't the strongest tumblers could sometimes get a team spot just for their stunting ability.

I think it should go back to level 6/7 small, medium, large, and the separation between coed and all girl of course. No restricted, no NT. Those could potentially be moved to summit.

 

[catlady]

I'm gonna be honest, I hated the increase in divisions that worlds had. I was able to buy XS at the beginning because it was reserved for smaller gyms who due to having a smaller pool could finally field a worlds team, but then it turned into the bigger gyms who already had the talent just going "oh cool guess we can field an extra team." And then restricted and NT came into play. NT only made sense in the HS setting since sometimes states or schools would restrict you from tumbling, and for years people who weren't the strongest tumblers could sometimes get a team spot just for their stunting ability.

I think it should go back to level 6/7 small, medium, large, and the separation between coed and all girl of course. No restricted, no NT. Those could potentially be moved to summit.

I think most of us would agree with you from strictly a competitive sport perspective.
However, solely looking through business eyes:

1) More divisions make it easier to manipulate numbers for venues and number of days needed.
2) Less depth in divisions is easier to score.
3) More athletes attending World's means a higher number of happy gyms, coaches, athletes and parents.
4) More divisions means more winners, again, more happy people.
5) Less depth in divisions means more athletes going on to day two, more happy people.
6) NT insures highly talented athletes can continue, or keep developing, in the sport at/to level 6 whether blocking, injured, aging, or stalling. More happy people, and personally, I love watching NT, there are some incredibly talented teams.
7) More divisions provides more talent across the top versus a lot of depth with less talent.
8) Parents can more easily justify spending thousands to fly their athletes domestically and internationally, even when they know their kid's team isn't going to win, when the division has 25 versus 100+ teams.
9) More divisions equals more SM coverage and interest from family and friends.

Ultimately, AS is an extremely expensive youth sport with very few scholarships. That combination makes it a business of filling venues and making people happy first, before it can even consider what's best for the sport on a more professional level.

 

[Knowcheering]

I'm gonna be honest, I hated the increase in divisions that worlds had. I was able to buy XS at the beginning because it was reserved for smaller gyms who due to having a smaller pool could finally field a worlds team, but then it turned into the bigger gyms who already had the talent just going "oh cool guess we can field an extra team." And then restricted and NT came into play. NT only made sense in the HS setting since sometimes states or schools would restrict you from tumbling, and for years people who weren't the strongest tumblers could sometimes get a team spot just for their stunting ability.

I think it should go back to level 6/7 small, medium, large, and the separation between coed and all girl of course. No restricted, no NT. Those could potentially be moved to summit.

I agree with most of this, there are definitely too many divisions. There are non-tumblers on just about every “regular” Worlds team that exists, so it’s nonsense to claim NT is crucial for keeping stagnated or injured-Level 6 athletes in the sport.

But what NT does do is allow a lot more athletes to get to Worlds, when they otherwise would be on Level 2-6 teams. And when you watch NT at Worlds, you get exactly that— everything from lower level athletes who aren’t very capable of level 6 stunting but are throwing it anyway (tends to come from small gyms desperate to have a Worlds team), to true Level 6 non-tumblers, to good Level 6 tumblers/highly coordinated athletes who take out their tumbling because there’s no spot for them elsewhere (at least one “NT” athlete from Worlds said they have a double full).

“Limited” divisions are even more random and don’t even feel real to me. A team being the only Worlds team in their program (or not) DOESN’T determine the merit of a team; just an excuse to create more winners. South Coast Cheer Fearless is 4x World Champs and is allowed to enter “Limited” next season. I almost wish they would, just to show how flawed this division concept is.

And why are we still allowing foreign countries (which is mostly Canada and England) to have Level 5 teams at Worlds?! These countries aren’t poor; they have well-developed gymnastics facilities and can afford spring floors/proper training facilities as well as a typical US gym can; it’s insulting to them to still think they can’t. International Level 5 should be at Summit.

But the one thing I disagree with is XS should be small gyms only. XS has served a need for the entire industry, not just small gyms. Why do people assume big gyms have a perfect number of athletes that all fit perfectly on Medium/Large teams?? For nearly every gym, once they fill a Medium/Large team, there aren’t enough athletes to also field another bigger team & XS might be the best fit. Besides, the bigger gyms make the quality of the XS divisions strong, which in turn makes a World title/globe feel prestigious instead of something handled to everyone. And that’s the point of Worlds, for excellence to rise to the top instead of just pretending everyone’s best in the world.

 

[LittleMissA17]

I agree with most of this, there are definitely too many divisions. There are non-tumblers on just about every “regular” Worlds team that exists, so it’s nonsense to claim NT is crucial for keeping stagnated or injured-Level 6 athletes in the sport.

But what NT does do is allow a lot more athletes to get to Worlds, when they otherwise would be on Level 2-6 teams. And when you watch NT at Worlds, you get exactly that— everything from lower level athletes who aren’t very capable of level 6 stunting but are throwing it anyway (tends to come from small gyms desperate to have a Worlds team), to true Level 6 non-tumblers, to good Level 6 tumblers/highly coordinated athletes who take out their tumbling because there’s no spot for them elsewhere (at least one “NT” athlete from Worlds said they have a double full).

“Limited” divisions are even more random and don’t even feel real to me. A team being the only Worlds team in their program (or not) DOESN’T determine the merit of a team; just an excuse to create more winners. South Coast Cheer Fearless is 4x World Champs and is allowed to enter “Limited” next season. I almost wish they would, just to show how flawed this division concept is.

And why are we still allowing foreign countries (which is mostly Canada and England) to have Level 5 teams at Worlds?! These countries aren’t poor; they have well-developed gymnastics facilities and can afford spring floors/proper training facilities as well as a typical US gym can; it’s insulting to them to still think they can’t. International Level 5 should be at Summit.

But the one thing I disagree with is XS should be small gyms only. XS has served a need for the entire industry, not just small gyms. Why do people assume big gyms have a perfect number of athletes that all fit perfectly on Medium/Large teams?? For nearly every gym, once they fill a Medium/Large team, there aren’t enough athletes to also field another bigger team & XS might be the best fit. Besides, the bigger gyms make the quality of the XS divisions strong, which in turn makes a World title/globe feel prestigious instead of something handled to everyone. And that’s the point of Worlds, for excellence to rise to the top instead of just pretending everyone’s best in the world.

I can get the last part of XS team not just being a way for small gyms who don’t have as many athletes with the required skill level to truly field a 6 team. I suppose it could work out in team fielding for a large gym depending on the sheer number of people at tryouts and such.

Also very heavy on the international part. While ICU worlds does have the separate division for newer countries getting but now the premier division has so many teams, I know many countries could naturally field level 6 teams and have the facilities to do it.

 

[WinstonsGirl]

I can get the last part of XS team not just being a way for small gyms who don’t have as many athletes with the required skill level to truly field a 6 team. I suppose it could work out in team fielding for a large gym depending on the sheer number of people at tryouts and such.

Also very heavy on the international part. While ICU worlds does have the separate division for newer countries getting but now the premier division has so many teams, I know many countries could naturally field level 6 teams and have the facilities to do it.

A country having a team in the Premier division versus the Elite division doesn't mean they can necessarily field more level 6 teams. Looking at Team Canada, they have 24 athletes on the floor (28 counting alternates), so let's say 7 stunt groups. But when 2 groups are from BC, another from Manitoba, 2-3 from different parts of Ontario, and then maybe some from Quebec or the maritimes, you can't create an all star team out of that.

That said, I do wish more Canadian teams were willing to stick it out in IO6 or IOC6, but I think the skill level of GW's and GG's is so high that many gyms would rather take their chances in level 5. It's a shame since I think it's hampered the tumbling acquisition for a lot of athletes if they don't need to push for doubles and standing fulls if they stay in level 5. It all comes down to money unfortunately. Gyms are more likely to have the athletes to field a competitive level 5 versus level 6 where you could get blown out of the water because you don't have the tumbling to keep up. And pushing for a few years to get to that level can be disheartening, causing gyms to lose athletes. As much as I like level 5, it would probably be more beneficial to the sport to cut the level from Worlds and push everyone back to level 6 again