All-Star Transgender Athletes?
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- Jan 20, 2010
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- Moderator
- #62
That's quite extreme and quite a charade to keep up. And honestly offensive. I'd love to see even one example of this happening in sports before we start banning it because someone could be an awful enough person to try and do that.
- Nov 18, 2010
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I don't know, some people come up with pretty awful lies...a girl on my squad at school quit, an her reasoning was she couldn't make weekend practices because her grandfather was murdered and she had to be at home on the weekends to go to court hearings.
- Jan 20, 2010
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- Moderator
- #64
But how do you keep up with that lie? You literally have to not know a single person on your team. You can't go to school with them, you can't be friends with them on social networks. It's basically an impossible charade to keep up with, not just a one time lie.
Plus, one of the articles I linked to - the one that talks about the NCAA recommendations says the following:
"Further, the report says that fears of people switching genders for the purpose of winning spots on women's college teams are simply unrealistic. "[T]he decision to transition from one gender to the other -- to align one’s external gender presentation with one’s internal sense of gender identity -- is a deeply significant and difficult choice that is made only after careful consideration and for the most compelling of reasons," the report says.
Read more: http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/10/05/trans#ixzz2A20iDz00
Inside Higher Ed "
- Nov 18, 2010
- 2,461
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I don't think the team would have to be in the dark though...there are teams out there that knowingly put illegal athletes on the floor all the time. They would just see it as the same thing as lying about age.
- Jan 20, 2010
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- Moderator
- #66
And when the truth does come out, as it usually does in situations like the one you mentioned, then I hope that that team gets barred from competing the rest of the season, AT LEAST, for participating in a lie that offensive.
It's going to be quite obvious that that's a boy in that girls uniform, so someone's going to look into it. It's a lot harder to hide than an athlete that's too young or too old.
catlady
Cheer Parent
- Jun 6, 2012
- 2,817
- 6,228
This isn't a dilemma just about acceptance, nor is it only about children competing at an Allstar level. The Olympics have been testing hormone levels since 1968 because, there were issues of cheating. Many would like to see Cheerleading recognized as a sport, and to see that happen they can't just take the emotional stance. Defining gender in sports is very controversial just Google "Transgenders in Sports", the Sport Governing Bodies of the U.S. have been struggling with this topic for years. What dorm do you get to stay in, what restrooms do you get to use, what medical insurance are you provided, etc. This topic is much larger than the Sport Governing Bodies of the U.S. and until "Gender" is defined in the U.S. legal system, it will continue costing Insurance Companies, Universities, Employers, and Sports millions of dollars battling individual law suits in the court system.
- Dec 14, 2009
- 7,234
- 19,629
This may sound like a leap, but I wonder the parallel between this and special needs kids. At what point do you allow for the circumstances and at what point do you treat them like everyone else? From what I've heard through various people, these athletes just want to be like 'normal' kids (really, what is normal anyway?) and treated as such. I'm not saying throw them to the dogs, but how much of it is the fear of not knowing how to handle the situation? Not wanting to offend/hurt/be too harsh?
This is a very difficult situation to make a blanket statement one way or the other about it yet. This world isn't black and white, but laws are (to some extent). SOME kids might be taking hormones, some won't be. Some may have undergone surgery, some won't. The only logical way of handling this is to go by birth certificate unless there is documentation that the athlete is undergoing hormone treatments.
When you register with the USASF (which soon everyone will be doing), your birth certificate is the documentation that will determine whether or not you are able to compete on a certain team, be it age or gender. In order to change that ruling, you'd have to have documentation. I don't see any other way..
This is a very difficult situation to make a blanket statement one way or the other about it yet. This world isn't black and white, but laws are (to some extent). SOME kids might be taking hormones, some won't be. Some may have undergone surgery, some won't. The only logical way of handling this is to go by birth certificate unless there is documentation that the athlete is undergoing hormone treatments.
When you register with the USASF (which soon everyone will be doing), your birth certificate is the documentation that will determine whether or not you are able to compete on a certain team, be it age or gender. In order to change that ruling, you'd have to have documentation. I don't see any other way..
- Dec 20, 2009
- 40
- 42
Just my two cents...if there was ever a sport/community that can embrace gay/lesbian/transgendered...it'd be cheerleading!
- Mar 31, 2010
- 1,489
- 2,957
cupieqt Thank you for finding that! But holy crap, I can't believe that was 2 years ago. I'm getting old!
This discussion should not be about acceptance or the warm-fuzzy feelings we all get when we feel that we are trailblazing the path to acceptance of everyone. I think we've made it clear that if you have a beating heart, there's a place for you in competitive cheerleading. It is not a matter of whether we are allowing certain athletes to compete, it's about what we are letting those certain athletes compete AS and where that place is. And on a larger scale, I think the discussion is about where the line is drawn between accommodating personal interests of a handful of athletes without putting the THOUSANDS of other athletes, that the discussion does not apply to, at a disadvantage. Treating everyone the same does not mean that certain groups get special privileges.
And I don't know how to say this without offending, well.............everybody. But it's easy to say "It shouldn't matter because we are making somebody feel good!" But what about those athletes that work YEARS, and dedicate their entire lives to getting on a certain team, and then their senior year have to accept the fourth place participation medals b/c they competed fairly but dropped their flyer when they had to compete with teams that had bases under them who had 30% more muscle than the standard female athlete has? What about those athletes? What if your daughter was the one cut from the team because a coach wanted to play the system and put Pat in her spot so you can finally start smashing those cross town rivals! And where do you draw the line on numbers? Maybe this ISN'T just one athlete on a team. Maybe this is 4 or 5 athletes. And if you take the 4 or 5 BEST athletes off of the top small senior teams and replace them with average athletes, they are probably right in the middle of the pack type teams. That is 25% of the team. While we were busy trying not to offend a handful of athletes, we broke the hearts/dreams/and prevented the achievement of goals to thousands of others.
This discussion should not be about acceptance or the warm-fuzzy feelings we all get when we feel that we are trailblazing the path to acceptance of everyone. I think we've made it clear that if you have a beating heart, there's a place for you in competitive cheerleading. It is not a matter of whether we are allowing certain athletes to compete, it's about what we are letting those certain athletes compete AS and where that place is. And on a larger scale, I think the discussion is about where the line is drawn between accommodating personal interests of a handful of athletes without putting the THOUSANDS of other athletes, that the discussion does not apply to, at a disadvantage. Treating everyone the same does not mean that certain groups get special privileges.
And I don't know how to say this without offending, well.............everybody. But it's easy to say "It shouldn't matter because we are making somebody feel good!" But what about those athletes that work YEARS, and dedicate their entire lives to getting on a certain team, and then their senior year have to accept the fourth place participation medals b/c they competed fairly but dropped their flyer when they had to compete with teams that had bases under them who had 30% more muscle than the standard female athlete has? What about those athletes? What if your daughter was the one cut from the team because a coach wanted to play the system and put Pat in her spot so you can finally start smashing those cross town rivals! And where do you draw the line on numbers? Maybe this ISN'T just one athlete on a team. Maybe this is 4 or 5 athletes. And if you take the 4 or 5 BEST athletes off of the top small senior teams and replace them with average athletes, they are probably right in the middle of the pack type teams. That is 25% of the team. While we were busy trying not to offend a handful of athletes, we broke the hearts/dreams/and prevented the achievement of goals to thousands of others.
- Dec 17, 2009
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sorry... but faking being transgendered just to win is ridicules. Kinda reminds me of that 90s movie Ladybugs
- Jan 20, 2010
- 5,666
- 9,254
- Moderator
- #72
I'm sorry, but I can't even take your argument seriously if you're really implying that a team would lie about 25% of its team being MTF transgenders. It's so ridiculously and obviously a lie to even pretend they could ever get away with.
- May 18, 2010
- 1,600
- 2,744
First, let me say, I'm a little tardy to this party...
1. Callmeboots Ashley BowCat are all right on the money on this one. Hats off to the three of you for expressing things so perfectly.
2. In terms of the whole hormones discussion... I have Polycystic Ovarian Disease, which means (in a nutshell) that my ovaries are covered in cysts, which release excess testosterone into my body. When I'm not taking medication, my testosterone levels are the same as a male. I also have a tumor on my pituitary gland, which produces excess prolactin, which blocks estrogen production. I am essentially infertile, and I will not be able to have children without extensive medical intervention (not exactly an easy thing to be told at age 27). Obviously, I am a female on the outside and the inside. I identify as a a female, and will always identify as a female. But, since I have to be chemically altered in order to produce normal female hormones, and since my biological female parts are basically non-functioning without the medication, does that mean that I'm somehow male? No. Much the same as if an MTF is taking hormones to become more chemically female. This is something that has only been discovered and diagnosed within the last two years, but my endocrine specialist believes that it has been this way since puberty. Does that mean that in all the years I competed in high school and college, there was some kind of unfair advantage? No, I don't think so. As has been mentioned before, ONE PERSON DOES NOT MAKE A TEAM. And, those of you who seem to think that everyone is gonna try to grab the bearded guy down the street, put lipstick on him, and stick him in an F5 uniform- YOU ARE IRRATIONAL.
3. To the people who are saying that they should be able to compete as whatever their ID labels them as, I agree. Most of the time, when transgender people make the decision to start hormone replacement, they go through the legal means for name and sex change. This would mean that if Julie is an FTM who now wants to be called Julian, and has begun the process of hormone replacement and legal name change, he would have an ID referring to himself as a Male named Julian. Also, I just want to point out that, as it has been mentioned, this is NOT a black and white issue. There is a lot of grey area. Many times, someone can identify as one gender and be taking hormones, but NEVER have the surgery. Case in point, a girl I went to college with who was an "Amanda" is now a male named "Chris" (I'm sure you all know I NEVER use real names on this board). He has had top surgery, which means he can go shirtless at the beach and look 100% male. He has decided, however, NOT to have the full reassignment done. What then? His driver's license refers to him as male. He lives his life as a male. His hormones would reflect that of a biological male. That IS a male.
4. As a lesbian, I have always felt a very strong connection and sense of empathy toward the transgender community. Even those in the LGBT world, who think that they are so loving, tolerant, and accepting towards others, STILL hasn't been a very welcoming place to those who are transgendered. There is a lovely documentary series that used to play on Logo (not sure if it still does, because my super lez girlfriend built us an HD antenna out of copper wire and pvc pipe, so all we have is free basic cable LOL), called TransGeneration. I would highly recommend checking it out, I used to watch it every week and would find myself crying almost every time.
I realize that we still live in a society where anything outside of "traditional" gender roles makes people uncomfortable. When my girlfriend and I moved into our apartment together, the landlord said "you are only two women living together? who pays your bills?" REALLY?! LOL... We do. We work and support ourselves. No man needed. Some people just really don't understand that the world is evolving, and as such, we all need to evolve with it. Just as the woman is no longer tethered to the dishwasher, and more boys show up in "female-associated" activitied (dance, cheer, etc), we now how an additional gender norm to contend with. (And I didn't even go into Genderqueer, because judging by some of these remarks, I think we need to take baby steps lol.... Genderqueer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Conclusion: If someone is TRANSITIONING (not dressing in drag, which are two wholly different things), then we need to respect that they are who they feel they are. I see no competitive advantage to allowing them to compete as either gender, especially if they are already taking hormones.
1. Callmeboots Ashley BowCat are all right on the money on this one. Hats off to the three of you for expressing things so perfectly.
2. In terms of the whole hormones discussion... I have Polycystic Ovarian Disease, which means (in a nutshell) that my ovaries are covered in cysts, which release excess testosterone into my body. When I'm not taking medication, my testosterone levels are the same as a male. I also have a tumor on my pituitary gland, which produces excess prolactin, which blocks estrogen production. I am essentially infertile, and I will not be able to have children without extensive medical intervention (not exactly an easy thing to be told at age 27). Obviously, I am a female on the outside and the inside. I identify as a a female, and will always identify as a female. But, since I have to be chemically altered in order to produce normal female hormones, and since my biological female parts are basically non-functioning without the medication, does that mean that I'm somehow male? No. Much the same as if an MTF is taking hormones to become more chemically female. This is something that has only been discovered and diagnosed within the last two years, but my endocrine specialist believes that it has been this way since puberty. Does that mean that in all the years I competed in high school and college, there was some kind of unfair advantage? No, I don't think so. As has been mentioned before, ONE PERSON DOES NOT MAKE A TEAM. And, those of you who seem to think that everyone is gonna try to grab the bearded guy down the street, put lipstick on him, and stick him in an F5 uniform- YOU ARE IRRATIONAL.
3. To the people who are saying that they should be able to compete as whatever their ID labels them as, I agree. Most of the time, when transgender people make the decision to start hormone replacement, they go through the legal means for name and sex change. This would mean that if Julie is an FTM who now wants to be called Julian, and has begun the process of hormone replacement and legal name change, he would have an ID referring to himself as a Male named Julian. Also, I just want to point out that, as it has been mentioned, this is NOT a black and white issue. There is a lot of grey area. Many times, someone can identify as one gender and be taking hormones, but NEVER have the surgery. Case in point, a girl I went to college with who was an "Amanda" is now a male named "Chris" (I'm sure you all know I NEVER use real names on this board). He has had top surgery, which means he can go shirtless at the beach and look 100% male. He has decided, however, NOT to have the full reassignment done. What then? His driver's license refers to him as male. He lives his life as a male. His hormones would reflect that of a biological male. That IS a male.
4. As a lesbian, I have always felt a very strong connection and sense of empathy toward the transgender community. Even those in the LGBT world, who think that they are so loving, tolerant, and accepting towards others, STILL hasn't been a very welcoming place to those who are transgendered. There is a lovely documentary series that used to play on Logo (not sure if it still does, because my super lez girlfriend built us an HD antenna out of copper wire and pvc pipe, so all we have is free basic cable LOL), called TransGeneration. I would highly recommend checking it out, I used to watch it every week and would find myself crying almost every time.
I realize that we still live in a society where anything outside of "traditional" gender roles makes people uncomfortable. When my girlfriend and I moved into our apartment together, the landlord said "you are only two women living together? who pays your bills?" REALLY?! LOL... We do. We work and support ourselves. No man needed. Some people just really don't understand that the world is evolving, and as such, we all need to evolve with it. Just as the woman is no longer tethered to the dishwasher, and more boys show up in "female-associated" activitied (dance, cheer, etc), we now how an additional gender norm to contend with. (And I didn't even go into Genderqueer, because judging by some of these remarks, I think we need to take baby steps lol.... Genderqueer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Conclusion: If someone is TRANSITIONING (not dressing in drag, which are two wholly different things), then we need to respect that they are who they feel they are. I see no competitive advantage to allowing them to compete as either gender, especially if they are already taking hormones.
- May 18, 2010
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- 2,744
Sorry, but I feel like when some of these posters are talking about MTF transgenders that they imagine this:
But really, it's this:
And that's my bit for today:D
But really, it's this:
And that's my bit for today:D
- Jan 20, 2010
- 5,666
- 9,254
- Moderator
- #75
[quote="Num1Stunta, post: 651452, member: 5133"Removed for length[/quote]
Thanks for responding, I was hoping you'd post when I got your notifications earlier. I know you mentioned ID, but what would your recommendation for minors who don't yet have ID? I know birth certificates can be changed in some places, but that's not really as practical or as easy to get/verify as a state-issued ID. Plus you run into potential problems with parents who aren't supportive, etc.
Thanks for responding, I was hoping you'd post when I got your notifications earlier. I know you mentioned ID, but what would your recommendation for minors who don't yet have ID? I know birth certificates can be changed in some places, but that's not really as practical or as easy to get/verify as a state-issued ID. Plus you run into potential problems with parents who aren't supportive, etc.
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