USASF off the hook, why?

[Deleted member 15]

So is it a matter of a bad scoresheet or a scoresheet being used improperly?

This is the question of the week.

 

[KB_Legend]

BlueCat (or anyone else) do you think the current varsity scoresheet would work better if the scoring grid more specificly defined what was required to place in the top end of your difficulty score?? Do you think that the difficulty expectations need to be higher? Do you think the judges just need to be a little tougher with their scores and leave room for someone to really blow the roof off??

 

[Deleted member 15]

BlueCat (or anyone else) do you think the current varsity scoresheet would work better if the scoring grid more specificly defined what was required to place in the top end of your difficulty score?? Do you think that the difficulty expectations need to be higher? Do you think the judges just need to be a little tougher with their scores and leave room for someone to really blow the roof off??

Quantity and Variety.

Leaving room at the top for someone that blows the roof off, which is the minority, leaves less room to separate the majority of the teams. Not leaving room at the top means to teams that blow the roof off aren't rewarded. Which is the better option?

 

[tumbleyoda]

Just to do numbers why is it so much different?

How much does it cost to compete gymnastics? Do they have to rent an venue? How many athletes go?

My data is probably out of date since I stopped actively coaching gymnastics in 2003. It all depends on the venue. A local or invitational type competition can quite often be held at the gymnastic school itself if it is laid out properly. This is often factored in the layout desgin of the gym. Costs used to be anywhere from 10.00 a person up to 35.00 a person depending upon the prestige of the event. A local event could draw 100 to 300 cheerleaders. An invitational would draw perhaps 100 more. States and regionals were held at independent venues like our cheerleading events are or a very large gymnsatic facility. Basically the higher the event the higher the cost and you had to qualify to attend. Quite often equipment costs could be subsidized by the host gym bringing equipment from their own gym except the floor. This would be preferred before renting. Also warm ups were done in the same area so there was no extra need to rent a warm up facility.


Judges were never contracted by the host unless it was an exhibition type event ie non sanctioned. Judges were assigned by the State Office based on qualifications and seniority. Judges could go in and evaluate/judge routines if requested.

 

[BlueCat]

Quantity and Variety.

Leaving room at the top for someone that blows the roof off, which is the minority, leaves less room to separate the majority of the teams. Not leaving room at the top means to teams that blow the roof off aren't rewarded. Which is the better option?

The range should be representative of the entire spectrum of teams regardless of how "close" that makes teams in the middle. If you want to allow the ability to separate those teams, then let the judges give scores in between what they are already allowed. (5.5 or 6.3 instead of ONLY 5 or 6.)

Example: I can't imagine anyone arguing that, all else being equal, a coed team doing "pure" coed stunts (no one else touches the whole time other than the base) would only score .1 higher than another coed team doing 100% assisted stunts. That is not even remotely indicative of the difference in difficulty.

 

[MotherNature]

Just curious . . . how exactly did the USAG end up being the governing body of gymnastics?? I mean, they have complete control over how gymnastics is run and that sport is more popular now than ever. Same with figure skating, soccer, and I'm sure many many other sports. How is it that they were able to accomplish what seems impossible for cheerleading? Maybe I just have a completely inaccurate view of what the USASF is and/or does.

I am with you. It is my personal feeling that inorder to have this "sport" get some serious backing and recigonition from the "athletic world" or even the higher ups in the college world - there has to be some uniformatity. Again, just my opinion, but I am starting to think that the "powers to be", are just as much, if not more, of a drama queen than the actual "cheerleader" - you know what I mean,,,, "I am so important and you have to follow my rules", kind of thinking, "my way is the only way". Unless "the powers to be" all start working together, this sport will never become what it could be. I truely wouldn't reccommend this sport to new comers. :-(

 

[scflips]

Ok, so this weekend somewhat proves my point (as far as the scoresheet goes). Varsity event tells me something completely different than a previous Varsity event as far as what my team needs to do in order to max score in 3 different areas. My gym has chosen several different events produced several different ways and it is my job as a coach to prepare my team according to an events scoresheet. But if I go to an event with the exact same scoresheet then why are there different requirements? Ex. Baskets I'll use lvl 3 (which btw this was not the lvl or div, just an Ex. I'll use a small team for numbers) Event 1. Same scoresheet - in order to max basket score must throw max # (5) of hardest lvl 3 skill (full toss/single element) Event 2. Same scoresheet - in order to max basket score must (3) full tosses and (2) pike open or toe touch. Event 3 Same scoresheet - in order to max basket score must throw (5) of hardest skill (full toss/single element) AND variety throughout routine.

Now this is just an example but the same example can be used for all lvls, lrg and sm teams.

Now this is just an example but hopefully sheds light onto some of my frustration as a coach. When TRYOUTS start teams are often picked based on skills needed in order to max a scoresheet, if the value is going to continually change, I just want to know what I as a coach am supposed to do when it changes from week to week? I do my research, I ask event producers, judges of all levels and yet even on the SAME scoresheet and entire point can be gained or lost based on the way THAT company chooses to enforce their scoresheet.

I am 100% for a Universal scoresheet, I am 1,000 % for consistancy. I agree that a company should have the right to do what they want but when is enough enough? Should I as a coach or different gym owners not EXPECT consistancy when they go to an event?

Again I go to USASF, IF they are going to hold the "World Championship" wouldn't it benefit ALL parties (gyms, companys, athletes, coaches) to be consistant? I just don't get it?

I've read previously mention of figure skating and gymnastics. If a figure skater has to spin on their head 5 times to max the score at one event and then the next it doesn't matter what's the point? Would a gymnast train beam if at the Olympics that score didn't matter? No, they are scored the same at every event and are told EXACTLY what they can do to improve for their next competition (because those judges are consistantly trained to look for the same thing). And if there is a change to the rules or scores for the following season then all parties are required to acknowledge the changes.

In my eyes its small changes that would make it better for ALL parties involved, I don't understand what ANY party benefits from not making these changes?

 

[Level5Mom]

Well put scflips!!!! Bravo!!!!!

I don't understand why coaches would want to have a different scoresheet at each event. I'd love to hear some reasons why from those who disagree with a standardized scoresheet so that I can better understand their point.

Why would we want our sport to have so many different definitions of what "THE BEST" is? So that everyone gets the change to win? Hogwash. Like scflips said, there is only one definition of "the best" in olympic sports. Define what "the best" is, whatever it is, and let teams work towards it.

You know what will happen? TECHNIQUE will start to improve, because that is what will separate one gym from another. Isn't that a GREAT thing? Our sport will get SAFER because technique will get better across the board to score higher!!

You know what else will happen? CHOREOGRAPHY will have to become exciting and innovative across the board to edge out the competition. That means we will probably see MORE innovative choreography from our sport!! (this is in response to those who feel choreography would get more boring with a standardized scoresheet).

 

[BlueCat]

Most event producers view their own scoresheet as being superior to all of the others. They think that their particular scoresheet is a main reason many gyms choose to go to their event. (This very same argument was used when people were talking about unifying the safety rules and age grid.)

 

[Mclovin]

Ok, so this weekend somewhat proves my point (as far as the scoresheet goes). Varsity event tells me something completely different than a previous Varsity event as far as what my team needs to do in order to max score in 3 different areas. My gym has chosen several different events produced several different ways and it is my job as a coach to prepare my team according to an events scoresheet. But if I go to an event with the exact same scoresheet then why are there different requirements? Ex. Baskets I'll use lvl 3 (which btw this was not the lvl or div, just an Ex. I'll use a small team for numbers) Event 1. Same scoresheet - in order to max basket score must throw max # (5) of hardest lvl 3 skill (full toss/single element) Event 2. Same scoresheet - in order to max basket score must (3) full tosses and (2) pike open or toe touch. Event 3 Same scoresheet - in order to max basket score must throw (5) of hardest skill (full toss/single element) AND variety throughout routine.

Now this is just an example but the same example can be used for all lvls, lrg and sm teams.

Now this is just an example but hopefully sheds light onto some of my frustration as a coach. When TRYOUTS start teams are often picked based on skills needed in order to max a scoresheet, if the value is going to continually change, I just want to know what I as a coach am supposed to do when it changes from week to week? I do my research, I ask event producers, judges of all levels and yet even on the SAME scoresheet and entire point can be gained or lost based on the way THAT company chooses to enforce their scoresheet.

I am 100% for a Universal scoresheet, I am 1,000 % for consistancy. I agree that a company should have the right to do what they want but when is enough enough? Should I as a coach or different gym owners not EXPECT consistancy when they go to an event?

Again I go to USASF, IF they are going to hold the "World Championship" wouldn't it benefit ALL parties (gyms, companys, athletes, coaches) to be consistant? I just don't get it?

I've read previously mention of figure skating and gymnastics. If a figure skater has to spin on their head 5 times to max the score at one event and then the next it doesn't matter what's the point? Would a gymnast train beam if at the Olympics that score didn't matter? No, they are scored the same at every event and are told EXACTLY what they can do to improve for their next competition (because those judges are consistantly trained to look for the same thing). And if there is a change to the rules or scores for the following season then all parties are required to acknowledge the changes.

In my eyes its small changes that would make it better for ALL parties involved, I don't understand what ANY party benefits from not making these changes?

Once again, we are on the same soapbox! lol Ditto, ditto, and ditto!!!

 

[Mclovin]

Most event producers view their own scoresheet as being superior to all of the others. They think that their particular scoresheet is a main reason many gyms choose to go to their event. (This very same argument was used when people were talking about unifying the safety rules and age grid.)

But this just reenforces what Level5Mom said, that each company is only thinking of themselves. No one is thinking about what it will take to make cheerleading a true sport; to make colleges view it as such; to make the olympic committee view it as such; to make newcomers to our sport view it as such.

I will be the first to admit that if we had a universal scoresheet, I would probably be crying foul for a while, and probably rightfully so, since it would be new and the judges would not be interpreting it the same way. But EVENTUALLY each company and each set of judges would get the hang of interpreting it and EVENTUALLY it would get better.

 

[Deleted member 15]

The range should be representative of the entire spectrum of teams regardless of how "close" that makes teams in the middle. If you want to allow the ability to separate those teams, then let the judges give scores in between what they are already allowed. (5.5 or 6.3 instead of ONLY 5 or 6.)

Example: I can't imagine anyone arguing that, all else being equal, a coed team doing "pure" coed stunts (no one else touches the whole time other than the base) would only score .1 higher than another coed team doing 100% assisted stunts. That is not even remotely indicative of the difference in difficulty.

I've typed a response 3 times, but when I read it I don't think it says what I'm trying to get across. I may try again later.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I will be the first to admit that if we had a universal scoresheet, I would probably be crying foul for a while, and probably rightfully so, since it would be new and the judges would not be interpreting it the same way. But EVENTUALLY each company and each set of judges would get the hang of interpreting it and EVENTUALLY it would get better.

How about issues around creating it. USASF tried with the Worlds score sheet and haven't managed to get one that applies to Club and International teams (and they only have to worry about Levels 5 and 6). JAM Brands tried and you can read many of the complaints on this board. Varsity tried and even Bluecat implied/said it was worse than NCA's. Why are we working with the assumption a Universal sheet would make things better when we have nothing to support that theory?

 

[Mclovin]

I will be the first to admit that if we had a universal scoresheet, I would probably be crying foul for a while, and probably rightfully so, since it would be new and the judges would not be interpreting it the same way. But EVENTUALLY each company and each set of judges would get the hang of interpreting it and EVENTUALLY it would get better.

How about issues around creating it. USASF tried with the Worlds score sheet and haven't managed to get one that applies to Club and International teams (and they only have to worry about Levels 5 and 6). JAM Brands tried and you can read many of the complaints on this board. Varsity tried and even Bluecat implied/said it was worse than NCA's. Why are we working with the assumption a Universal sheet would make things better when we have nothing to support that theory?

Oh but I DO think we have something to support our theory . . . other sports that have done such and are very highly supported and recognized in the sporting community. Yes the Jambrands and Varsity scoresheets are not perfect, yet, but if EVERYONE would get on board with one of them, support it, give it a few seasons to be tweaked and worked out, I think the number of complaints would become fewer and fewer.

 

[scflips]

I know that there would be MANY complaints about a Universal score sheet BUT if the rule is the rule and its consistant then gyms would have to follow. Did everyone agree with the age grid? No, but since it is the same throughout, gyms follow, they don't have a choice. If you tell me I need "x" to max out the score at EVERY comp I go to then I as a gym would focus on "x", doesn't matter what "x" is as long as its the same every week. Stong tumbling gyms would complain if the scoresheet leans in favor of stunts and the same if tumbling were over stunts. (I don't see why they all can't be worth the same, mood point). BUT if you tell me what I have to do, then I can complain, get those on board that need to be and then change it for ALL events then I'd be alot happier. Is it an easy, quick fix, NO but can it at least be a start, YES. Honestly EVERY gym out there has a scoresheet they prefer and one that benefits them the best but if you tell ALL gyms what they have to do, then ALL gyms would adjust.

I just think the "you can't please everyone" thing is a cop out. You can please me by letting me know what I have to do EVERY week, I'll make the adjustment (as I think all good coaches/gyms) would do.