All-Star Usasf Response To Varsity's Announcement

[ASCheerMan]

Is there is a big difference in which teams win now? I'm not sure how much of the results variation from week-to-week can really be attributed to scoresheet variations and how much is just the fact that each team performs differently from week to week. My opinion - the larger gyms with more resources are currently able to study their results from different competitions and use that information much more easily than smaller gyms typically can. Public, standardized scoring would eliminate most of the huge information advantage that big gyms currently have. (There I go again.)

I see both sides, but the massive gains in efficiency, understanding, legitimacy, and quality of judging far outweigh any disadvantages to me. I still believe that different judges and the subjective parts of the scoresheet would still contain enough "randomness" to keep things from being too predictable.

In the day of CHEERSPORT being a score sheet being heavily-weighed on deductions and a 50/50 Day 1 and Day 2 split vs NCA Nationals with a less deduction heavy system and a 25/75 split, a team would inherently have varying levels of success. Teams that peak in one performance vs. teams that hit consistently had varying levels of success.

I agree that the benefit of consistency to the industry as a whole is obvious. I've already witnessed it as I've watched the NCA scoresheet become the Varsity scoresheet. And then the Varsity scoresheet got picked up by so many independent brands. For NCA Nationals, the pool of qualified judges is SO MUCH larger because so many judges spend the season judging on the system for other companies. For that, I am thankful.

Universal or not, I want to get to a place where the scoresheet (and rules for that matter) stops changing. A majority questions at the Event Tent during a competition aren't actually about the scores, but rather how the system works. During years where the system has been relatively consistent with the year prior, there were noticeably fewer questions/issues/concerns.

 

[ACEDAD]

Universal or not, I want to get to a place where the scoresheet (and rules for that matter) stops changing.

A and men.

 

[King]

Universal or not, I want to get to a place where the scoresheet (and rules for that matter) stops changing.

I think the general feeling is that all of cheerleading will end once we go to a universal scoresheet. But once everyone is on the same playing field (just like with rules) the individual scoresheet itself can evolve and be used over and over all season until it gets to NCA Dallas. By that time there should (in theory) have been a lot of qualified people using the scoresheet all season ready for Dallas.

I do think NCA has some of the best judges (and rules judges). By best I mean the ones who will produce the most consistent and accurate results. I think it is a crying shame people have to wait all year for one event with very consistent and accurate results. While it is great for NCA, it basically means all year you are in for a crapshoot. What gym could really want that? Other competitions might use less qualified judges or judges who are new to a scoresheet or set of rules. We have all seen what happens when you have replacement officials (*cough* NFL *cough*). Now imagine even the NFL refs having to adjust to different rules every game. It wouldn't be consistent OR accurate. And people would complain and raise high Hell!

But consistent and accurate seems to be the opposite of what people are arguing for when they don't want a universal scoresheet. It is this weird thing where everyone wants the judges to get it right every time (aka consistency... but they dont like that word) but always want the results to be different so different teams have a chance at winning. This isn't Upwards Sports people.. there are going to be winners and losers.

 

[ScottyB]

This isn't Upwards Sports people.. there are going to be winners and losers.

Thank you!

For those that want different score sheets to help their teams from competition to competition, i'm confused.. That to me is like playing a round of golf, but for the Par 5's you want to hit from the Tees closer to the hole so that you do better on those holes. Makes no sense.

A universal scoresheet allows for a level playing field (if judges and coaches understand it), which isn't that what everyone wants? To be able to bring their best to a competition and have it go against the other teams in the most fair way possible, without the score sheet differences from a million other comps getting in the way?

 

[ASCheerMan]

I think the general feeling is that all of cheerleading will end once we go to a universal scoresheet. But once everyone is on the same playing field (just like with rules) the individual scoresheet itself can evolve and be used over and over all season until it gets to NCA Dallas. By that time there should (in theory) have been a lot of qualified people using the scoresheet all season ready for Dallas.

I do think NCA has some of the best judges (and rules judges). By best I mean the ones who will produce the most consistent and accurate results. I think it is a crying shame people have to wait all year for one event with very consistent and accurate results. While it is great for NCA, it basically means all year you are in for a crapshoot. What gym could really want that? Other competitions might use less qualified judges or judges who are new to a scoresheet or set of rules. We have all seen what happens when you have replacement officials (*cough* NFL *cough*). Now imagine even the NFL refs having to adjust to different rules every game. It wouldn't be consistent OR accurate. And people would complain and raise high Hell!

But consistent and accurate seems to be the opposite of what people are arguing for when they don't want a universal scoresheet. It is this weird thing where everyone wants the judges to get it right every time (aka consistency... but they dont like that word) but always want the results to be different so different teams have a chance at winning. This isn't Upwards Sports people.. there are going to be winners and losers.

For the record, NCA will still be the best--universal system or not. Our event isn't the best because of the scoring system we use. It also isn't the best because of who we hire to judge (well it kind of is, but it goes a step further, keep reading).

There's a lot of teamwork that goes into the success of our event and everyone associated with it is on the same page. I see coworkers and judges really step up their game for NCA. In my opinion, what makes us the best is the priority and emphasis on getting it right. I know I step up mine. Our selection process is the best. Our judges training is the best. And the integrity of the competition is top of the line. That will be the case years after the universal system is in effect.

(I just didn't want this conversation to evolve into 'NCA is going to lose its competitive advantage,' because I'm confident that's not going to be the case).

 

[cheercurl]

Cheerleading is still going to be a subjective sport even with an identical score sheet. Don't you think EP/brand's would still have a different flavor and interpret things slightly different. Maybe I am crazy but I think even with a universal score sheet there will still be a pattern of inconsistencies. I get that is what we are trying to avoid but it is human nature to favor a style or music or form of a particular gym. It will not take long for a gym to figure out how Cheersport interprets that score sheet verses Jam or NCA or UCA.

A universal score sheet is not the absolute solution it is just another step in the right direction.

 

[King]

For the record, NCA will still be the best--universal system or not. Our event isn't the best because of the scoring system we use. It also isn't the best because of who we hire to judge (well it kind of is, but it goes a step further, keep reading).

There's a lot of teamwork that goes into the success of our event and everyone associated with it is on the same page. I see coworkers and judges really step up their game for NCA. In my opinion, what makes us the best is the priority and emphasis on getting it right. I know I step up mine. Our selection process is the best. Our judges training is the best. And the integrity of the competition is top of the line. That will be the case years after the universal system is in effect.

(I just didn't want this conversation to evolve into 'NCA is going to lose its competitive advantage,' because I'm confident that's not going to be the case).

That is great to hear you say that (and in general I agree). I think if if consistent judging and good use of scoresheets in cheerleading were to become a de facto standard then NCA would still outshine everyone by having the best venue, best production, and best customer service. Visiting NCA for their judges would become a non factor (as it is for all other sports when it concerns the officiating crew).

If you really want to cement your advantage I think you should really look at my suggestion of live judging only being concerned with execution and a video tape being used for difficulty. It would allow judges to REALLY reward those who executed and performed well... and then all the hard work put into a skill to as well get rewarded. You can use the same scoresheet as everyone else, just use it a heckuva lot better!

 

[Drkilluzionz]

My question to those apposing a Universal Score Sheet is, are you beating the teams that beat you on a different score sheet or are you just putting yourself against different teams and finishing better? The way I see it is regardless of the score sheet a good coach can be successful anywhere. Less issues to navigate through the better for the sport IMO. I feel by choosing your competition schedule well you can choose a "Universal Score Sheet" for your team/program. My issue is regardless how you feel or what you choose to go with, when you get to Worlds, everyone is screwed (equally).

I play the cards I'm dealt but happen to be from a program whose coaches are exceptional choreographers and whose athletes have plenty of distractions. We cant make mandatory tumbling, extend practice hours and if we make teams in which athletes feel like they're being held back...they quite and we loose numbers. It's good to know that in years past I could have gone to say, All Star Challenge and used choreography and performance to level the playing field for a team that maybe weren't as skilled as others in their division.

There's a million and one different scenarios as to why different score sheets work for different gyms and on a smaller scale different teams within a program. So as a "good coach" I think the monotony of everyone wanting and requiring the same thing will eventually prove harder and harder for gyms who'd found a niche to get by on with their entire program or with teams that needed that kind of catering to.

 

[King]

I play the cards I'm dealt but happen to be from a program whose coaches are exceptional choreographers and whose athletes have plenty of distractions. We cant make mandatory tumbling, extend practice hours and if we make teams in which athletes feel like they're being held back...they quite and we loose numbers. It's good to know that in years past I could have gone to say, All Star Challenge and used choreography and performance to level the playing field for a team that maybe weren't as skilled as others in their division.

There's a million and one different scenarios as to why different score sheets work for different gyms and on a smaller scale different teams within a program. So as a "good coach" I think the monotony of everyone wanting and requiring the same thing will eventually prove harder and harder for gyms who'd found a niche to get by on with their entire program or with teams that needed that kind of catering to.

How does the niche affect business? Without the niche would you lose more competitions, and therefor athletes? Would you lose athletes to another gym or only because the kids aren't winning? (Honestly asking)

 

[uptown_outlaw]

I really like that idea! Except what do you do when you get to World's?

Be perfect.

 

[yojaehs]

I play the cards I'm dealt but happen to be from a program whose coaches are exceptional choreographers and whose athletes have plenty of distractions. We cant make mandatory tumbling, extend practice hours and if we make teams in which athletes feel like they're being held back...they quite and we loose numbers. It's good to know that in years past I could have gone to say, All Star Challenge and used choreography and performance to level the playing field for a team that maybe weren't as skilled as others in their division.

There's a million and one different scenarios as to why different score sheets work for different gyms and on a smaller scale different teams within a program. So as a "good coach" I think the monotony of everyone wanting and requiring the same thing will eventually prove harder and harder for gyms who'd found a niche to get by on with their entire program or with teams that needed that kind of catering to.

First I respect your program tremendously and I think your program does an amazing job in all aspects. But if one EP awards your strengths and others don't what true difference does that make? Yes, All Star Challenge currently (or previously, I haven't attended one of their comps in a long time) awards things one way and the following weekend you have to change your whole routine to be competitive then your right back where you started.
A Universal Score Sheet will affect some negatively, but as I said before good coaches, regardless of the scenario will adapt if they want to stay in business. I am MORE for what is best for the whole of the sport than what benefits one (or few) gyms niche.

 

[cheercurl]

Be perfect.

Hey, that could actually work...we need to pass that on. LOL