All-Star Very Important!! New Tumbling Rules Questions. We Need Your Help.

[cheerinfo]

kingston - I still say at least 75% for tumbling to max out...just my two cents...AGAIN ;)

Otherwise, I agree with all being said.

 

[Bystander]

So is the safety issue really an issue?? I mean there is NO data on the tumbling aspect and now all the talk is about scoring and leveling the playing field.

 

[Level5Mom]

I had this thought the other day building off what you said, and I think this might have some teeth AND bring back choreo. Each skill section that is scored is only based off one section in your routine. For instance, you will only get scored on one stunt sequence in your routine (presumably the hardest) and the rest do not get scored into stunts. Same with baskets. Same with jumps. This means no more two stunt sequences. You basket in the pyramid its part of the pyramid.

As well the squad synch tumbling either needs to replace running or go away. Squad synch tumbling pretty much requires every kid to throw an extra pass.

Exactly. It also shows more due diligence to insurance companies because it addresses issues across the board..... Although I would rather see synch tumbling go away, than running tumbling individuality. Synch tumbling is dangerous in and of itself with the extra tumblers around. This is how Mclovin daughter got her leg broken. Get rid of the synch tumbling and let the individual tumblers show their stuff.

 

[King]

Exactly. It also shows more due diligence to insurance companies because it addresses issues across the board..... Although I would rather see synch tumbling go away, than running tumbling individuality. Synch tumbling is dangerous in and of itself with the extra tumblers around. This is how Mclovin daughter got her leg broken. Get rid of the synch tumbling and let the individual tumblers show their stuff.

Take away the extra stunt sequence and that is 4 eight counts to have with transitions and choreography. Running tumbling is one of the few places that provided a break in the routine as well.

 

[Num1Stunta]

My personal feeling, if your going to limit the tumbling, take all the doubles (please no one shoot me!). They can't throw them in college or hs. We're the last man standing. That kills the restricted 5 division, and just made it so much harder to win. Without doubles, you'll need full team specialty to fulls to even come close to placing. Of course, there are, in my experience, so many more janky fulls being thrown than doubles. Some are just downright scary.
.

I agree with this. I know we gripe about not wanting to add more divisions, but I think the restricted 5 division is a good idea. I'm wondering what people think about this idea:

Level 5 as a worlds division that follows what we now call currently "restricted" level 5 rules ( ie no doubles or standing fulls) and maybe some stunt restrictions as well, can be youth, junior, or senior with bottom age of 12

Level 6 as a worlds division that follows current level 5 rules across the boards, restricted to 14+

Level 7 as a worlds division that follows current level 6 rules across the boards and would be restricted to 18+

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

I am not going to reiterate my thoughts as I believe I have made them clear, and the above posters have stated how I feel regarding execution and coaches certification.

Stepping out on a limb... Allstar cheer has become level 5 dominant. What I mean by that is that the only true "reward" to the vast majority of athletes is attending Worlds. That is not to say that Senior 5 is not an accomplishment and should not be celebrated, because it should without a doubt. There is no real focus on any division that isn't Senior 5 though. Everybody wants to be in that division just so they can go to Worlds, which is how many people in this industry perceive being successful. That is how gyms draw athletes from other gyms, and programs expand. Perhaps USASF could at least consider some sort of semi-equivilent competition for the other divisions. I am not talking about earning paid bids, partials, and the like. However, if Varsity (I know, I know, but the network is large enough and already in place to provide this) could maybe have a true nationals at the end of the year for the division WINNERS (no passed down bids, no paid anything) from each of their affiliate Nationals competitions. Obviously we would want scoring to be with a heavy emphasis on execution to discourage gyms/coaches from trying risky skills with younger/more inexperienced athletes. Teams could decide whether they wanted to attend based on cost, etc. The reason I suggest no paid bids is because Allstar is already expensive enough. I would really hate to see the cost be increased by such a system. Perhaps if we had a "reward' competition like this, coaches may start emphasizing the lower levels and the execution element.

 

[NoOneSpecial]

In addition to insurance being a reason for the new rules, I have heard another reason is that kids are quitting cheer because it has become too hard. I don't know if I agree with this, but isn't that why we have levels? I have some suggestions that will affect the industry as a whole in exchange for cutting off 3 tumbling skills only affecting the top 1% of tumblers in the industry:

Stop requiring multiple jump sequences to a tuck to max the scoresheet. (one is enough, 4 jumps max or even 3)
Stop requiring variety of baskets
Limit the scoresheet to only 1 stunt sequence and 1 tumbling sequence allowed
Eliminate the need for squad synchro tumbling (ro hand fulls/doubles together).

With the kids quitting could it be because there is more focus on the level 5 teams therefore kids are getting discouraged because they feel they could never reach that level? This board is a prime example - all the talk on here is about level 5.

You mention cutting back the amount of jumps, stunts and baskets within a routine to accommodate those 1% of the athletes. Well that now affects the other 99% of the athletes. Those 1% athletes twist multiple times within a routine. A top tumbler could end up twisting 4 times within a routine - a standing full, standing to full/dub, a running full/dub and if you participate in sync you have another twist.

Majority of The sentiment on the board is a better coach credentialing system and stiffer penalties. I agree there should be A better credentialing system but the increase in injuries have occurred at the top gyms that we all look up to and feel have the best coaches in the industry. So I ask why? As for the stiffer penalties from judges, shouldn't that have been occurring all along?

I really don't want to see skills restricted as I have an athlete that can throw every single one of these skills plus some. She has worked very hard on gaining these skills but I need to take her out of the equation. If restricting skills temporarily to fix the root cause I am all for it. Train the coaches, implement a universal score sheet and focus more on execution in all aspects of the score sheet.

I am not for all the skills listed being restricted. I can see standing fulls/doubles and twisting bounding skills for females. I see nothing wrong with bounding a twisting skill with a wip.

 

[Num1Stunta]

I had this thought the other day building off what you said, and I think this might have some teeth AND bring back choreo. Each skill section that is scored is only based off one section in your routine. For instance, you will only get scored on one stunt sequence in your routine (presumably the hardest) and the rest do not get scored into stunts. Same with baskets. Same with jumps. This means no more two stunt sequences. You basket in the pyramid its part of the pyramid.

As well the squad synch tumbling either needs to replace running or go away. Squad synch tumbling pretty much requires every kid to throw an extra pass.

I agree with much of what you said, except the stunting. I'm actually surprised that you would suggest that, since you're such a big proponent of true coed stunts/ quantity score. I think the stunting category should be split into 2 separate scores- elite stunt and quantity stunt, which would force everyone to have 2 stunt sections and limit the need for tumbling to be pushed so much. There could even be separate score categories for entry, dismount, invert, etc

 

[King]

I agree with much of what you said, except the stunting. I'm actually surprised that you would suggest that, since you're such a big proponent of true coed stunts/ quantity score. I think the stunting category should be split into 2 separate scores- elite stunt and quantity stunt, which would force everyone to have 2 stunt sections and limit the need for tumbling to be pushed so much. There could even be separate score categories for entry, dismount, invert, etc

I don't think two seperate stnt sequences will work. If you want coed stunts, only allow coed stunting to get a high score. Forces teams to take more and different types of boys. You need the little tumbler boys for what they do well and the big stunter boys for what they do well.

 

[Level5Mom]

You mention cutting back the amount of jumps, stunts and baskets within a routine to accommodate those 1% of the athletes. Well that now affects the other 99% of the athletes. Those 1% athletes twist multiple times within a routine. A top tumbler could end up twisting 4 times within a routine - a standing full, standing to full/dub, a running full/dub and if you participate in sync you have another twist.

.

Yes but the suggestion is only in the context of kids quitting because the routines are too hard, so affecting the 99% is seen in a positive light. That means 99% (100% actually) of the kids would see an easier routine overall (less jumps, less running tumbling without synch in there, less stunting).

 

[hopskipandjump]

One of the reasons I was so for the division size of 30 is that you cannot max out stunt groups to fit the number exactly. It has 2 alternates built in on a full team so coaches have flexibility. Why is that important? Because choreography is so expensive and time consuming to change for just one athlete by making routines live on this razors edge to have exactly the number of people needed in the right places to do all the skills means you increase the chance of injuries because you have no flexibility.

I think the simple majority rule is a bit OVER doing it. I think 2/3's will get the job accomplished and allow for some kids to not be doing the skills. As well by decreasing the skills required for maxing out in tumbling (not just in level 5 but ALL levels) you are again decreasing the need for tumbling classes. Tumbling classes are what ALLOW allstar gyms to exist. No tumbling classes, no allstar gyms.

Tumbling classes are what ALLOW allstar gyms to exist. No tumbling classes, no allstar gyms.

Not true for everyone. We only offer only level 1-2 for cheerleaders getting those skills and only with 2 instructors certified in those 2 levels. Anyone else from our gym takes classes elsewhere. We are totally non profit, so classes do not allow us to exist.

 

[King]

Tumbling classes are what ALLOW allstar gyms to exist. No tumbling classes, no allstar gyms.

Not true for everyone. We only offer only level 1-2 for cheerleaders getting those skills and only with 2 instructors certified in those 2 levels. Anyone else from our gym takes classes elsewhere. We are totally non profit, so classes do not allow us to exist.

I speak for 95% of the ecosystem. It is weaved as an integral part of this sport.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

Can I be honest... sometimes it isn't the coaching at all. Kids do things, they sometimes get hurt. Also, sometimes even though well trained and coached they blank out. That's why injuries can happen even level 1 and 2.

My arguments are as follows:
USASF is protecting their butts b/c parents while they know the risk if their lil precious gets hurt, they still want to know the first person to blame b/c any day their lil precious didn't freak out wasn't thinking about 500 other things and bit their pass and now your training and skill set and so on is wrong and you pushed the child to get a skill.. I can go on and on and on and on.

They really shouldn't be removed, however, I am going to be honest and age and maturity have something to do with this. While you may have an extremely mature 8 year old ready for a standing full, no matter how talented some are, they don't have the attention span for this yet and also don't fully understand consequences of getting hurt. So perhaps, keeping the skills but almost having a better set of progressions so they are aware.

I know this kinda rambles, but things that came to my head. I don't understand restricting tumbling.. maybe a standing double, but a standing full... they can be properly and cleanly executed so makes no sense and whip doubles, some tumblers whips are better and more powerful and controlled then backhandpsrings, so this all seems shady to me. And it's ODD I say that w/ rules as I am a rules stickler wether I like them or not.

 

[munchkinmom]

Just another voice, repeating mostly what so many others are saying:
Stricter: bad tumbling should be punished in scoring to the point that it keeps coaches from having athletes "throw" skills they barely have. In all levels. Limiting could eliminate the "elite" aspect of level 5 cheer. It could increase the number of competitive teams in L5.
Why leave skills: As a community, we have been unable to locate reports of these skills causing catastrophic ("waiver" injuries - death, paralysis, TBIs) injuries in all-star cheer. Major injuries (broken bones, ACL tears, etc.) occur everywhere in our society. As a society, we do not regulate to eliminate major injuries, we regulate to eliminate catastrophic injuries. Limiting elite skills limits growth in the sport/activity. Limiting sets a goal of mediocrity instead of telling kids to shoot to be the best. Limiting could eliminate the "elite" aspect of level 5 cheer. It could cause an exodus of serious athletes (L5 as well as lower) who strive to be part of something elite, who feed off that drive to know that they could be one of the the few standing in front of the world.

Some people want Junior Worlds back. Is it time to make a combined Junior Worlds/Senior Restricted Worlds Comp or Junior & Senior Restricted Worlds Comp?

 

[lakerfantlc]

I think your suggestion was the best....do NOT cap skills....kids need goals and dreams....put HUGE deductions on tumble busts for example when attempting a double they only get one and a quarter way around....clearly they do not have the skill etc...the sad fact is...a deduction is feared sometimes more than injury...problem solved...IMO