All-Star Well Now What Are We Are We Supposed To Talk About.

[CookieMomster]

Easy solution...then don’t call it Worlds! Call it something else. For a world event to be truly a Worlds level event it needs representation from around the world. Otherwise it’s just a glorified National championship.

 

[Cheeranswers]

Easy solution...then don’t call it Worlds! Call it something else. For a world event to be truly a Worlds level event it needs representation from around the world. Otherwise it’s just a glorified National championship.

but they’re still representation of all countries, just not when it comes to finals. Other countries are definitely getting there, I just don’t see why they should get a crutch.

I think of it like World Cup of soccer. Canada isn’t good. It’s like them implementing a rule so that Canada has to qualify. We aren’t at their level yet, and that’s okay.

 

[Emily]

Honestly, I'm completely fed up with still having to discuss the 3-per-country rule.

Everyone is comparing cheerleading to all these other sports that don't have a similar rule but then forget to see the other differences to our "world" championship. I'd say: as soon as we have a world championship that has a different host country each time we can talk about all of the other rules. I think a lot of people from the US grossly underestimate how much of an advantage it is to compete in a somewhat familiar environment with more than 5 people in the audience to cheer you on during the routine.

Yes, right now it isn't "the best of the best" in the international finals, but if you care so much about it just switch to global which gives you the "best of the best" and then just don't care about the international divisions anymore.

 

[XtremeWpg]

Honestly, I'm completely fed up with still having to discuss the 3-per-country rule.

Everyone is comparing cheerleading to all these other sports that don't have a similar rule but then forget to see the other differences to our "world" championship. I'd say: as soon as we have a world championship that has a different host country each time we can talk about all of the other rules. I think a lot of people from the US grossly underestimate how much of an advantage it is to compete in a somewhat familiar environment with more than 5 people in the audience to cheer you on during the routine.

Yes, right now it isn't "the best of the best" in the international finals, but if you care so much about it just switch to global which gives you the "best of the best" and then just don't care about the international divisions anymore.

Exactly

And, the more I watch the more I realize that the senior divisions are essentially an American nationals. Those divisions have such a small amount of international participation, for whatever reason. Look at senior large coed. Only American teams. In prelims and finals. So, did you win a “world” championship or a “national” championship.

I’m not trying to take anything Way from the kids in the senior division, but I have always found it difficult to consider some of these teams “world” anything.

For everyone complaining about the 3 per country rule, there’s now divisions available for the open division teams to go into where that doesn’t happen and a choice can be made about where you want to compete.

I’m tired of the primarily American attitude about the 3 per country rule because it excludes some awesome teams. Well, now those teams have their chance by competing in Senior Open.

I can feel myself getting saltier and saltier about this argument, especially now that there is a viable and reasonable alternative for teams who want to avoid 3 per country.

 

[XtremeWpg]

Even if you take that comparison away though, this mode of running things doesn’t necessarily honour the best athletes. Which is why we’re all there.

Like I said: everyone is aware of the skills it takes to win. No one is at a disadvantage that way. True, cheer is more popular in some countries than others, but that doesn’t stop anyone from training enough to hang with the top 5 teams, wherever they’re from. There’s no need to decide who gets to finals based on geography. That has nothing to do with anything and feels hollow and disingenuous to me.

There is unequivocally a disadvantage for international teams. Socioeconomic, qualified coaches, suitable training facilities. All of these are disadvantages that can and do exist in a lot of countries.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

There is unequivocally a disadvantage for international teams. Socioeconomic, qualified coaches, suitable training facilities. All of these are disadvantages that can and do exist in a lot of countries.

Couldn’t you make the argument that a lot of these same disadvantages exist for US gyms as well?

 

[BlueCat]

Easy solution...then don’t call it Worlds! Call it something else. For a world event to be truly a Worlds level event it needs representation from around the world. Otherwise it’s just a glorified National championship.

If we can get rid of the 1,000 "national championships" while we are at it. and just have "NCA", "USASF", "CHEERSPORT", "MAJORS" champions - I am totally down for that. That aligns more with the reality of the situations anyway - like major events in several sports.

 

[XtremeWpg]

Couldn’t you make the argument that a lot of these same disadvantages exist for US gyms as well?

Access to coaches and coach training in America is dramatically higher than in a lot countries. Access to gyms is higher. Look how saturated the markets are. People frequently chose to drive hours to a certain gym, but the vast majority of participants have a gym very close to them.

Travel within America is cheap. I know people there think it isn’t, but it is. For us, to travel to a competition where our senior 2 had more than 1 team to compete against is a minimum 8 hour drive, to compete to qualify for a Worlds bid is the same distance. A flight from where I am to nationals is almost $700. Then there’s an 90 minute drive. Which is exactly why we don’t go, because the trip for the weekend costs close to $2500.

America views cheer generally as a sport and it receives support from schools and gyms.

Other places aren’t so lucky because they’re behind because cheer is so new.

 

[CookieMomster]

but they’re still representation of all countries, just not when it comes to finals. Other countries are definitely getting there, I just don’t see why they should get a crutch.

I think of it like World Cup of soccer. Canada isn’t good. It’s like them implementing a rule so that Canada has to qualify. We aren’t at their level yet, and that’s okay.

That’s still not an accurate example. Let’s compare apples to apples. Soccer still only has one country per team and cheer has tons of teams. If that’s the case then only one team per country should advance and a round robin of competitions should be held.

I highly doubt the US teams would be as dominate if they had to raise the money and head overseas to compete. Having Worlds rotate countries might actually level the field then.

Nobody is saying all of the divisions need the 3 country rule but there’s no selling feature for int’l teams to spend upward of $50k+ for a 1-day 2.5min routine showcase. Don’t like it, move to open. To have a int’l division requires int’l representation.

Everybody keeps saying this doesn’t happen in other sports and yet it does. No other sport is scored like cheer. Don’t think of it as a crutch, think of it as a handicap and that’s a common practice in sports

 

[BlueCat]

I don't think anyone is getting their mind changed on the only-3-per-country rule. We see it as taking opportunity away from our athletes, others see it as adding opportunities for their athletes. If our roles were switched, perhaps our views would change.

 

[XtremeWpg]

I don't think anyone is getting their mind changed on the only-3-per-country rule. We see it as taking opportunity away from our athletes, others see it as adding opportunities for their athletes. If our roles were switched, perhaps our views would change.

I don’t want anyone to change their mind. And you are very open to discussion about the hows and whys about what happens.

There are many people who are close minded on this topic.

 

[BlueCat]

I don’t want anyone to change their mind. And you are very open to discussion about the hows and whys about what happens.

There are many people who are close minded on this topic.

I think "our" side would pretty much shut up about it if it were "Top 10 scores AND top 3 per country". We don't want to exclude other countries or limit opportunities, we just don't want to have the 4th or 5th highest score out of 50 teams, not advance, and not get the opportunity to say they were top 10 in the World.

 

[Sterling von Shimmer]

Access to coaches and coach training in America is dramatically higher than in a lot countries. Access to gyms is higher. Look how saturated the markets are. People frequently chose to drive hours to a certain gym, but the vast majority of participants have a gym very close to them.

Travel within America is cheap. I know people there think it isn’t, but it is. For us, to travel to a competition where our senior 2 had more than 1 team to compete against is a minimum 8 hour drive, to compete to qualify for a Worlds bid is the same distance. A flight from where I am to nationals is almost $700. Then there’s an 90 minute drive. Which is exactly why we don’t go, because the trip for the weekend costs close to $2500.

America views cheer generally as a sport and it receives support from schools and gyms.

Other places aren’t so lucky because they’re behind because cheer is so new.

I feel like if we keep pulling at this thread though, it’s only going to make cheer more convoluted.

Take UCA HS Nationals. The same arguments could be applied: the level of talent varies by each state, as does the cost of travel. Texas is more of a powerhouse cheer state than Montana. Teams living in Florida will pay less for travel than teams in California. But they don’t take three teams per state to finals so everything is “fair.” Each team assesses their talent, the cost, and makes a decision as to whether it’s worth it to go to the comp. Lots of teams just accept they’ll probably only perform once and then go home and that’s just how it is.

I know it’s not exactly the same, but it is a microcosm of the situation.

 

[XtremeWpg]

I feel like if we keep pulling at this thread though, it’s only going to make cheer more convoluted.

Take UCA HS Nationals. The same arguments could be applied: the level of talent varies by each state, as does the cost of travel. Texas is more of a powerhouse cheer state than Montana. Teams living in Florida will pay less for travel than teams in California. But they don’t take three teams per state to finals so everything is “fair.” Each team assesses their talent, the cost, and makes a decision as to whether it’s worth it to go to the comp. Lots of teams just accept they’ll probably only perform once and then go home and that’s just how it is.

I know it’s not exactly the same, but it is a microcosm of the situation.

This isn’t about talent. It’s about resources and access to them. And you can be the most talented hockey player, but without access to a rink and coaching and equipment, you aren’t making it to a pro league. Cheer is the same.

It is a fact that there is a lack of readily available and financially accessible options in the vast majority of countries outside of Canada and the US. There is a lack of trained coaches because these countries are ‘cheer deserts’ so to speak.

We also arent taking about a cost difference of $1500 vs $5000+ at the high school level for travel either.

 

[XtremeWpg]

I think "our" side would pretty much shut up about it if it were "Top 10 scores AND top 3 per country". We don't want to exclude other countries or limit opportunities, we just don't want to have the 4th or 5th highest score out of 50 teams, not advance, and not get the opportunity to say they were top 10 in the World.

And that I can 100% get behind and would be my ideal solution as well.

I get it. My gym got burned by the 3 per country rule at 2016 and 2018 Worlds.

Globally we just aren’t in a position to scrap the 3 per country rule yet if we do want to continue growth of the sport overall.

This issue is larger than just this one competitive event, and the larger implications of cheer around the world don’t seem to always be considered in discussions.