All-Star What About Coaches Gym Hopping?

[simplymom]

This is an easy one. ;) Don't switch until the end of the season. My young children understand about dedication & commitment. I think an adult should be able to comprehend the same basic values. You made a commitment to the kids, gym owner, other coaches etc. Suck it up until the end of the season. :p

(Yes, yes, I know. There ARE a few valid exceptions to to my steadfast words of wisdom.)

 

[CheerCoach84]

Speaking as a coach who has Gym hopped, which I never left mid season.. For me, there were reasons: The job changed, owner change, the job just ended! I have loved every gym that I have ever coached at, and still have Great relationships with All of them! Sometimes things just don't workout, my experience only though with no hard feelings... I have forged great friendships with the kids that I have coached, their parents, the staff, etc... So mine have for the most part been easy, but above that, I have always moved states away from every gym that I have coached at: WV, OH, NJ, PA, NC, FL, so it's not like I went to work for the competitor down the street. Anyone who has done that, there should have been a valid reason for doing so. Everyone has a story I suppose for the reasons that they have left a gym.:cool:

 

[socratesofcheer]

Oh, hahaha! How quickly I forgot--I only left VA 6 months ago so I should have known that. I don't know how many states have that though. VA seems to be its own little country sometimes. I would bet the only other states that have that are the other commonwealths...but I might be wrong?

There are many states where they will not hold up. I would look at union vs non-union states to see where they would potentially be upheld.
Also, coaching is not the equivalent of, say, the colonels secret recipe at KFC. Proprietary information is a determing factor a lot of times.

 

[krissycole44]

Are there are any rules set forth with the USASF about coaches "recruiting" old team members from the gym they have left? I think at one point they talked about gyms not handing out fliers or tshirts with tryout information at competitions and such... I could be wrong. Anyway..any info would be helpful! thanks!

 

[hopskipandjump]

I've seen this happen many times at my old gym.... Coaches think they're going to start up their own program, without realizing how entailed that can be, and how impossible that is to do in NJ when you have well-established, worlds caliber gyms within less than a half hour of just about anywhere in the state. I mean North Jersey, just where I live, I could drive 10 minutes and hit Just Cheer, Star Athletics, and CC Champs. In Central Jersey, near where I go to school, I could drive 20-30 minutes and hit CJA, Comets, and World Cup. In South Jersey, you have just as many- SJS, NJSE, etc. Even the number of non-worlds caliber gyms in the state is pretty numerous for such a small state. Inevitably, you hear of these coaches not being able to get something off the ground and they end up going to another gym to coach- which is easy to do, because there are so many within close proximity to each other.

I know 5-6 coaches from my old gym who left (including me lol) around the same time to join different nearby programs. We all left because of the same reason- the gym was under new ownership, and we did not like the changes that were being made. At least 3 of those coaches have moved onto ANOTHER program after that move, which is like 3 programs in 5 years. I can understand if you're leaving for a financial need- say Gym A pays $12 an hour and Gym B pays $20, you have a baby on the way and you're behind on the mortgage, ok, then Gym B it is. But, if you're someone who is constantly moving from one gym to another, just because you don't like something there, maybe it's not the gym that's the problem...

I need to meet you!!!

 

[Just-a-Mom]

There are many states where they will not hold up. I would look at union vs non-union states to see where they would potentially be upheld.
Also, coaching is not the equivalent of, say, the colonels secret recipe at KFC. Proprietary information is a determing factor a lot of times.

But so is skill. My sister's contract had more to do with the fact that she is very good at what she does than that she has some secret information.

I'm just saying until the end of the season...not unreasonable, especially if we're willing to hold the athletes to this. Why on earth wouldn't we hold the coaches to the same standards as the athletes? As for saying that unhappy coaches will do a bad job: I agree with what someone said earlier - fire them. Then they can go somewhere else to their little heart's content.

 

[tumbleyoda]

One of the problems is we label gym hoppers whether they be athlete or coach without really understanding the reasons why. One poster above (coop I believe) gave some very legitimate reasons why he left some programs. Yet he will be painted with the same brush as those who just leave because they want a new experience every couple of years. Also those who have been terminated, let go or contract not renewed are in a different category as well. They have changed gyms but have not gym hopped.

I agree that the ideal time is to wait for the end of the season. However in some situations (just like with cheerleaders) it may not be prudent to do so. IMO if a cheerleader can move for safety issues, verbal abuse, program shift then so can a coach. Switching teams or programs mid year just because you get a better offer to me does not fall under acceptable reasons, even if it is your "dream" job.

You also have to understand that most often younger coaches are trying to build their name up in this industry. Sometimes moving on is the fastest way for them to do that. They are trying to get more choreography deals, music deals, judging opportunities, summer camp work, higher visability. They are trying to go from working part time in the industry to working full time. A bigger program, higher profile program, more equipment, more responsibilities may be what they are seeking to acheive their goals more than building a program from the ground up. It take a different type of coach to build a program than it does to maintain, manage or move it along once it has been built. The amount of coaches who can do it all long term in one location are few and far between unless they have some vested interest like ownership or a child in the program. Some coaches just want to their job and go home. Others want to be more involved. Finding the right fit with the right program is challenging for coaches as well as cheerleaders.

As you mature at some point you become comfortable where you are and what you are doing and how you can best contribute both to a program and the industry. You see the bigger picture beyond the dollar signs and the hype. There is less reason to consider a change. Those coaches regardless of age voluntarily gym hop less. For these coaches, termination, contract not renewed, relocation to another area due to other consdierations not related to the gym may the reason they switch gyms. Now if the program changes ownership, direction, focus, etc. they may revaluate if they can commit to the the new vision. If not then it is best they leave at the end of the season.

 

[socratesofcheer]

But so is skill. My sister's contract had more to do with the fact that she is very good at what she does than that she has some secret information.

I'm just saying until the end of the season...not unreasonable, especially if we're willing to hold the athletes to this. Why on earth wouldn't we hold the coaches to the same standards as the athletes? As for saying that unhappy coaches will do a bad job: I agree with what someone said earlier - fire them. Then they can go somewhere else to their little heart's content.

I've dealt with a lot of these "no compete" contracts in my day. Being "very good" at what you do is not a reason that would hold up.
The problem with the very good argument is, if they weren't good why would the former employer want to enforce a contract?

 

[tumbleyoda]

I've dealt with a lot of these "no compete" contracts in my day. Being "very good" at what you do is not a reason that would hold up.
The problem with the very good argument is, if they weren't good why would the former employer want to enforce a contract?

Multiple shimmys for you! I have been that situation. While there we were the best coaches on earth and no one was better. When coaches left no matter how -on our own, terminated or laid off - we left every coach was trashed as not being any good. Every coach. I was too old, couldn't tumble, needed to retire and let the young coaches do it and held the gym back because I had the nerve to care about safety of kids and coaches. :rolleyes: That and because I had a gymnastic background and was never a cheerleader so I had "no clue"... uhhmmmm ok.

I often said the same thing if we sucked wouldn't you want us to go to the competition to mess up their program? Some gyms use the threat of a non compete to keep you from working at a local competitior's program. The biggest thing with a non compete from what I understood was propiertary information that you only could of gained working at one place that somehow could be used against them at another place. Unless they can prove in court that they trained you and everything you learned and developed came from working with them, ultimatley it would not stand up in court. But the threat and cost to fight such a lawsuit is usually enough to make people back down and wait it out or find other alternatives. What they really need to sign is a non solicitation agreement and that would cover what most gyms are really concerned about - the loss of kids and revenue following a coach they love to another program.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

Multiple shimmys for you! I have been that situation. While there we were the best coaches on earth and no one was better. When coaches left no matter how -on our own, terminated or laid off - we left every coach was trashed as not being any good. Every coach. I was too old, couldn't tumble, needed to retire and let the young coaches do it and held the gym back because I had the nerve to care about safety of kids and coaches. :rolleyes: That and because I had a gymnastic background and was never a cheerleader so I had "no clue"... uhhmmmm ok.

I often said the same thing if we sucked wouldn't you want us to go to the competition to mess up their program? Some gyms use the threat of a non compete to keep you from working at a local competitior's program. The biggest thing with a non compete from what I understood was propiertary information that you only could of gained working at one place that somehow could be used against them at another place. Unless they can prove in court that they trained you and everything you learned and developed came from working with them, ultimatley it would not stand up in court. But the threat and cost to fight such a lawsuit is usually enough to make people back down and wait it out or find other alternatives. What they really need to sign is a non solicitation agreement and that would cover what most gyms are really concerned about - the loss of kids and revenue following a coach they love to another program.

Now that I like! But that would be difficult to enforce just like everything else. We are currently at the same gym as a coach who left our last gym during the season. (Although he alone would be my reason for disagreeing with the whole non-compete thing - and I'm the one who posted it in the first place!!! I was sooooo glad when he moved on because he is in such a better place now!!!). But the old gym owners are convinced he "stole" us and that he was actively recruiting people and he was doing no such thing. We were going there long before he ever even left. He was actually extreeeeemely professional about the whole thing - we take privates with him and he never once asked us when we were coming over or anything at all about the 2 gyms. He just talked tumbling. When we came for registration he was very welcoming but even then STILL was very gracious about the old gym. (Gee, Can you tell I love him??? )

 

[tumbleyoda]

Now that I like! But that would be difficult to enforce just like everything else. We are currently at the same gym as a coach who left our last gym during the season. (Although he alone would be my reason for disagreeing with the whole non-compete thing - and I'm the one who posted it in the first place!!! I was sooooo glad when he moved on because he is in such a better place now!!!). But the old gym owners are convinced he "stole" us and that he was actively recruiting people and he was doing no such thing. We were going there long before he ever even left. He was actually extreeeeemely professional about the whole thing - we take privates with him and he never once asked us when we were coming over or anything at all about the 2 gyms. He just talked tumbling. When we came for registration he was very welcoming but even then STILL was very gracious about the old gym. (Gee, Can you tell I love him??? )

It may be more difficult to enforce unless you can prove it by direct actions, not allegations or circumstancial evidence. People are going to always say a coach pulled kids, she was recruited, etc but proving it with facts in a court of law is the point. Most of the stuff we read on the boards and FB formspring etc would be thrown out in the majority of cases because it is mostly third hand gossip information.

I take no credit for the statement because I have defended non competes in the past and have argued if you dont like it don't sign it. @ACEDAD brought me around to thinking about it that way years ago when we were debating this same issue - is that really what is being sought by most programs is to protect their clients and their program which they feel they have built up over the years.

Glad you are happy. It speaks volumes for him.

 

[socratesofcheer]

@tumbleyoda and @Just-a-Mom
I don't think you could even enforce a non-solicitation agreement. For example: I recruit athlete on behalf of @tumbleyoda for his new gym.

If there is no contract with me or the other numbers of parents/kids then that's a real hard one.

Now, the developer of the iPhone may have a tough time getting out of his contract with apple.

 

[tumbleyoda]

@tumbleyoda and @Just-a-Mom
I don't think you could even enforce a non-solicitation agreement. For example: I recruit athlete on behalf of @tumbleyoda for his new gym.

If there is no contract with me or the other numbers of parents/kids then that's a real hard one.

Now, the developer of the iPhone may have a tough time getting out of his contract with apple.

I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on Fierceboard so I honestly couldn't tell you. IMO even if there is not a written agreement if there is an oral agreement and it is overheard and corroborated by actions of both parties then it makes it more tenable. Or if there is e-mail or phone messages that point to the solicitation. Just thinking.

 

[cheerne2011]

Well i can relate to this definitly because this is what happened at our gym..a coach left at the end of the season to go to a different gym. i think that its disrespectful. not only does it hurt the hearts of the athletes and the gym as a whole but it also shows that the person is not trustworthy. i can understand if something big happened at the gym they were at and they had to forcefully quit or got fired..but leaving for no excuses or bad excuses is unexceptable.

 

[NJ Coach]

Well i can relate to this definitly because this is what happened at our gym..a coach left at the end of the season to go to a different gym. i think that its disrespectful. not only does it hurt the hearts of the athletes and the gym as a whole but it also shows that the person is not trustworthy. i can understand if something big happened at the gym they were at and they had to forcefully quit or got fired..but leaving for no excuses or bad excuses is unexceptable.

I don't have a problem with a coach leaving at the end of the season. Just like kids leave after the season is over, coaches do to. As an athlete, you won't (or shouldn't) know what any issues they may have had behind the scenes. The fact that they left after the season is over, actually shows me the person is trustworthy, and will finish his job.