All-Star When Should A Skill Be Warned Vs When A Full Deduction Should Be Given?

[Ashley]

When we've had day 1 & day 2 competitions, the warning has been issued on day 1, if there's no change, its an illegal skill deduction on day 2. Sometimes though, nothing changes and we've had coaches put standing fulls in a level 4.2 routine on both days, which was special.

I think it's absolutely up to the coaches to know their rules. My team asked me if they could work on a pump front full for their level 6 routine. I rattled off the flipping dismount rules so fast their heads spun. Seeing as that is you *job* you should at least know how to Google USASF rules and look it up.

USASFRules.com ! It's pretty easy to remember.

 

[BlueCat]

The whole "why don't people just read the rules" concept is oversimplifying the process. There are many cases where the judgement of whether something is legal is not nearly as simple as a quick read-through of the rules. People who have been immersed in the rules process for over a decade still get in interpretation debates of the guidelines.

Also, now that performance errors are getting legality deductions, it changes the discussion further. It is like chastising NFL coaches for "not knowing the rules" every time one of their players gets called for holding or interference.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Performance errors should be warned. Obvious rule breaking should be deducted (e.g. unbraced extensions in level 1). Gray areas should be deducted with the responsibility of reversal left up to the coach. If you know your stunt/pyramid/tumbling falls into an area where it could be called into question, get written approval from Les & the rules committee (easy enough to do).

My J1's had a stunt that got a legality deduction every competition. I had it reversed every single time and knew to double check my scores right away.

 

[DaniV]

My J1's had a stunt that got a legality deduction every competition. I had it reversed every single time and knew to double check my scores right away.

We love to push the grey areas in our gym and we have the same situation happen every year. We know that it is legal (gotten confirmation and have proof) and will double check the score sheet and head straight to the judges table to get it reversed. It would be so much easier if there was someone in the back watching that we could verify it is legal with so we don't have to deal with getting it reversed after the fact. Especially when awards have already happened - first place isn't as exciting when you miss getting to stand on the podium and having your name called.

 

[King]

USASFRules.com ! It's pretty easy to remember.

I wonder whom hosts that site.... hmmm...

 

[Ashley]

I wonder whom hosts that site.... hmmm...

Let's just hope the board doesn't crash again during a major competition weekend taking the rules site down with it...


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[King]

Let's just hope the board doesn't crash again during a major competition weekend taking the rules site down with it...


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

May the board never crash again. Amen.

 

[yojaehs]

I think if more EP's were more strict at calling penalties more coaches would do their responsibility better. Sending in a video and getting confirmation is not difficult to do. I know it's a pain with stunts changing throughout the season. I would rather it be called and more strict than a "judgment call" I agree with what Steven said about safety judges backstage. I also agree with Tamara on her sending in videos. Yes, there are debates. Yes, it could and should be checked and debated BEFORE event.

 

[King]

I think you can narrow this down to 'are there ever circumstances where an illegal stunt should not be called illegal'? I think it should always be called illegal and then you have the answer to the rest of your questions and challenges.

Coach: We weren't called for this last week. Why did you call me on it this week?
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

Coach: We didn't choreograph it to be illegal, they just accidentally performed it that way.
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

Coach: We didn't intend to do something illegal. It was an accident.
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

Coach: We are really sorry and its going to break these kids hearts if they lose because of a penalty.
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

 

[CFAmom2]

We were at NCA 2 years ago jr 4 and our pyramid was called illegal on day 1. The safety judge was nice enough to come out after and review the changes we made to let us know if it was legal for day 2. Apparently it was a level 5 release move. We had been to 5 other competitions and had never been told it was illegal before. We got a warning FYI and not deducted :-)


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[12stepCheermom]

This is where I'm reminded of a previous scoring thread where we talked about standard scores for particular skills to get a true "start value." If we had a system where the routine had to be submitted ahead of time (so judges aren't counting skills, counting deductions and judging performance simultaneously in 2:30) I think this would help here too.

If what they submitted is legal and what they performed is not = then it's a safety deduction, especially if the skill they performed was not what was submitted to begin with.

I'm not opposed to a one time warning (although tracking that across events would be a nightmare) to account for performance errors. But if the coach didn't correct that error afterward (either through coaching the athlete(s) or changing the skill and it happens again then it warrants the deduction.

Of course, to reference @BlueCat's football example, I'm the same girl that thinks rookie mental errors (like false starts, 12 men on the field, lining up in the neutral zone etc) should be met with per incident fines that go to charity.

Seriously, you're a pro lineman making millions a year and you don't know where the neutral zone is?! I think the JimmyV Foundation (or whatever charity of choice) should get some 1K donation for that! :D


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[cheer9497]

My team got disqualified once because a skill in our pyramid was legal for UCA but illegal for our HS State competition rules. It sucked. We sat all through awards and by first place they hadn't said our team so we were like omg we got first (super shocked since we had a fall) but then they called someone else (who we didn't even know was in our division) and we were so confused on why we didn't even get a place.

The dreaded WACPC rules??

 

[Kelli Nicole]

This is where I'm reminded of a previous scoring thread where we talked about standard scores for particular skills to get a true "start value." If we had a system where the routine had to be submitted ahead of time (so judges aren't counting skills, counting deductions and judging performance simultaneously in 2:30) I think this would help here too.
The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

One of the organizations in Germany used this system up til about 2011. It was TERRIBLE. All you saw from this was the same things because every team knew a tic toc was X points, a full up Y, etc etc. So they just built their routines around the elements that scored the highest, regardless of execution and ability to perform the skills.

I can't even begin to name all the teams I saw in L6 that built swedish falls, 211 etc. that just were NOT ready for it.

 

[GreenStormLucy]

I think you can narrow this down to 'are there ever circumstances where an illegal stunt should not be called illegal'? I think it should always be called illegal and then you have the answer to the rest of your questions and challenges.

Coach: We weren't called for this last week. Why did you call me on it this week?
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

Coach: We didn't choreograph it to be illegal, they just accidentally performed it that way.
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

Coach: We didn't intend to do something illegal. It was an accident.
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

Coach: We are really sorry and its going to break these kids hearts if they lose because of a penalty.
Safety Judge: Is the stunt illegal the way it was performed?
Coach: Yes
Safety Judge: Then it's illegal.

This. I never warned a team. If i see something illegal, i give the deduction.
Yes, we don't have safety judges. We expect the coaches to read the rules, and if they are not sure, they can always send a video to get it clarified.
It was a mistake that made a stunt illegal? Okay, yes that's sad, even more for the athlete who probably didn't grab in the right way or whatever situation can happen (the crossover accidently throwing a layout on a lower level).


But to be honest:
Is there another sport where you can say - oh, sorry, it was a mistake. Can we still get the score? (I know it's apples and oranges, but still)

When i started coaching, my Junior L4 got disqualified. Back then we had no deductions for illegal elements, you just didn't get scored.

We did a pyramid and she flipped over a middlayer. The rules didn't say they had to hold hands, just that they needed to be in contact.
Was it unfair? Yes, a little bit.
Did i learn to read the rules and double check on everything? Yes.

If your coaches are not good at reading rules and doing this stuff, find someone at the gym who is and will read the rules for each competition and watch the routines full out at the gym to find out if you have critical elements.
Just my 2 cents :-)


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!

 

[GreenStormLucy]

One of the organizations in Germany used this system up til about 2011. It was TERRIBLE. All you saw from this was the same things because every team knew a tic toc was X points, a full up Y, etc etc. So they just built their routines around the elements that scored the highest, regardless of execution and ability to perform the skills.

I can't even begin to name all the teams I saw in L6 that built swedish falls, 211 etc. that just were NOT ready for it.

I remember this. You had so many routines look the same without creativity. And it was terrible.
Now the system is a lot better, but not perfect.
Let's see what all these changes will bring to the routines with the requirement of a cheer and all this stuff :-)


The Fierce Board App! || iPhone || Android || Upgrade Your Account!