All-Star When Should A Skill Be Warned Vs When A Full Deduction Should Be Given?

[Kelli Nicole]

This. I never warned a team. If i see something illegal, i give the deduction.
Yes, we don't have safety judges. We expect the coaches to read the rules, and if they are not sure, they can always send a video to get it clarified.
It was a mistake that made a stunt illegal? Okay, yes that's sad, even more for the athlete who probably didn't grab in the right way or whatever situation can happen (the crossover accidently throwing a layout on a lower level).


But to be honest:
Is there another sport where you can say - oh, sorry, it was a mistake. Can we still get the score? (I know it's apples and oranges, but still)

When i started coaching, my Junior L4 got disqualified. Back then we had no deductions for illegal elements, you just didn't get scored.

We did a pyramid and she flipped over a middlayer. The rules didn't say they had to hold hands, just that they needed to be in contact.
Was it unfair? Yes, a little bit.
Did i learn to read the rules and double check on everything? Yes.

If your coaches are not good at reading rules and doing this stuff, find someone at the gym who is and will read the rules for each competition and watch the routines full out at the gym to find out if you have critical elements.
Just my 2 cents :)

Agree. When I judge in Germany, things get deducted if they are illegal, without warning. I had a coach come up to me at the end of awards and ask how her team got such a low score - the team was really one of the best, but they just had so many deductions that it caused them not to get 1st.
I think it's a bit harder in places like Germany to implement a safety judge that is there to watch routines in the warm up/run through areas who can then hand out warnings to teams...resources are just too limited to have all that.

My old senior L6 team got big deductions at ECC in Bottrop because they (the coach or someone else in the team) didn't read the rules and built a double 421 at 3-high, which was allowed in CVD at the time. They were so upset that no one gave them a warning in the run through area about this... but really, who's responsibility should it be to watch for these things? Just some staff person who is making sure Team A is on Floor B at their designated time or the coach? I wholeheartedly believe it is the coach's responsibility to know what is legal and what is illegal - or at least know the rule book to an extent. And if it's a gray area or unclear, to ask for clarification.

As a judge/rules person in Germany, I am so surprised by how many coaches don't know simple terminology or definitions. I get asked repeatedly about the definition of a spotter, or most recently I was asked what a inverted position was.

I remember this. You had so many routines look the same without creativity. And it was terrible.
Now the system is a lot better, but not perfect.
Let's see what all these changes will bring to the routines with the requirement of a cheer and all this stuff :)

Agree. The routines back then with that system were so cookie-cutter is was ridiculous. It will be interesting with all the changes coming.

 

[GreenStormLucy]

@Kelli Nicole

So, at Elite you mostly get away with little things, a 3-High Pyramid is so obviously not allowed, you will get a deduction :-/

But i know it can be hard as a coach:
The ECC is a good example. One year we competed there and the rulebook was supposed to be based on the ccvd rules.

I'm glad i still read them, because it wasn't allowed to cradle to a prone position in that level although in ccvd it was.
So you really have to read the rules carefully, no one will care after awards if you thought it would be legal.


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[Kelli Nicole]

@Kelli Nicole

So, at Elite you mostly get away with little things, a 3-High Pyramid is so obviously not allowed, you will get a deduction :-/

But i know it can be hard as a coach:
The ECC is a good example. One year we competed there and the rulebook was supposed to be based on the ccvd rules.

I'm glad i still read them, because it wasn't allowed to cradle to a prone position in that level although in ccvd it was.
So you really have to read the rules carefully, no one will care after awards if you thought it would be legal.

Totally agree... I thought it was silly that the L6 team got so upset about it, to then find out NO ONE had read the rule book, they just assumed it was the same as CVD (which is where they belonged at the time). -.- I was still new at the time, but after that I took over the role of deeming things illegal or not within the team.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I think this is really tricky. At the end of the day it us about athlete safety. If a level 3 teams performs a level 5 element, chances are it isn't safe. Also, level 5 elements are more impressive than level 3 most of the time so that would give an unfair advantage to teams who are breaking the rules.

There are some instances where a warning is warranted. Like when I review a video and can't tell 100% if I saw something correctly. The number one time this happens is with spotter grips. Its hard with lighting and videos to see the back left corner for instance. I would always write a note saying to verify. The thing that bothers me most is blatantly illegal skills and some coaches blatant disregard for them.

Ignorantia juris non excusat - "ignorance of the law does not excuse"

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[NJ Coach]

@imrichhowboutu has called my teams on legalities a few times (all were performance errors, and 99% of them were expected deductions). Just wait Rich...I'm ready for you this year. I've got my emails backing me up, just in case ;)

 

[Deleted member 15]

@King that is an excellent point... how would you keep track of warnings between different EP's though? I could maybe see it being possible to track (but a logistical nightmare and would probably involve the hiring of more staff just to police this) within a specific EP.

This should be possible for the 2015-16 season.

But again, what happens when a safety judge misses it in warm-ups?

Currently it's still deducted and I don't see that changing. The first responsibility lies with the coach knowing the rules for their team.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Safety judges need to be in warm-ups at all competitions to check for intentional legalities. If it isn't caught in warmup, it shouldn't be deducted. If a performance error makes a stunt illegal, it should be a warning on Day 1, and a deduction on Day 2.

This seems to remove all responsibility from the coach knowing the rules for their team.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I feel like warnings are for two things: At the beginning of the season when some skills are illegal but kind of in a grey area.

If you say it's illegal, why should it be warned?

If the safety judge has to watch it again on video, it should be a warning.

I watch everything I call more than once.

 

[Deleted member 15]

The whole "why don't people just read the rules" concept is oversimplifying the process. There are many cases where the judgement of whether something is legal is not nearly as simple as a quick read-through of the rules. People who have been immersed in the rules process for over a decade still get in interpretation debates of the guidelines.

I agree with this part.

Also, now that performance errors are getting legality deductions, it changes the discussion further. It is like chastising NFL coaches for "not knowing the rules" every time one of their players gets called for holding or interference.

Do you think "performance errors" should get a deduction?

 

[Deleted member 15]

Performance errors should be warned.

Why?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I think it's a bit harder in places like Germany to implement a safety judge that is there to watch routines in the warm up/run through areas who can then hand out warnings to teams...resources are just too limited to have all that.

We're too limited to do it in America right now too.

 

[King]

I think if a stunt is dropped we deduct as a performance error.

I think if something is performed illegally as a performance error it should at minimum get the equivalence as a drop if not the whole penalty.

 

[GreatWhite92]

I think if a stunt is dropped we deduct as a performance error.

I think if something is performed illegally as a performance error it should at minimum get the equivalence as a drop if not the whole penalty.

I agree with this. Any mistake in a routine is essentially a performance error and should be deducted as such.

 

[Hi-Phlyer21]

I've had a few legality issues this season.
1) people telling me something is illegal and trying to change my routine when I know for a fact that it's not.
Resulting with me changing it back and getting into with other coaches within my own program.
Our level 4 senior team started doing the whole straight jump, tuck thing.
Then the girls who coach with me out a straight jump back handspring into my senior 2 routine.
I didn't agree with it but I have it a chance.
We go to competition and get a deduction.
I go to the judges to find out why.
Some of the kids legs were ever so slightly separated or they slightly piked at some point in the middle of the jump.
I ague that they all do straight jumps except the point girl because she did something different as she wasn't doing a BHS.
They review the video again and tell me that because of what I already said they were goin to give me an unintentional legality deduction because it looks like they're doing bad toe touches or bad pikes.
And our coaching staff was baffled by this. They were clearly not doing a body position in that particular part if the jump sequence so we shouldn't have been getting a deduction AT ALL but I couldn't argue it any more.
Needless to say I took it out right after that because a) I don't like it, b) if it's like that I'm. It risking the deduction, c) it doesn't help our jump score.
I guess what inferring at is that it's up to the coaches to know all the rules and how to interpret them. If you don't know. FIND OUT.
The company that did our choreography gave several of our teams skills that were not level appropriate. With one team having those elements turn out to be illegal. I caught some of them. Other coaches caught others. While one got caught at a competition and they took that.
While in the case of my senior 2 I'll always feel we shouldn't have been deducted but if I had no choice but to receive the penalty in that case is rather have the unintentional the the full as it truly was an unintentional execution am error.
I think performance error isn't the term we should be using although it means the same thing.
My senior 2 should have been a warning.
Senior 4's deductions absolutely give them the penalty. They performed skills that were illegal. While senior 2 did something totally legal for them but evade of their execution led the judges to believe otherwise.


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[imrichhowboutu]

I've had a few legality issues this season.
1) people telling me something is illegal and trying to change my routine when I know for a fact that it's not.
Resulting with me changing it back and getting into with other coaches within my own program.
Our level 4 senior team started doing the whole straight jump, tuck thing.
Then the girls who coach with me out a straight jump back handspring into my senior 2 routine.
I didn't agree with it but I have it a chance.
We go to competition and get a deduction.
I go to the judges to find out why.
Some of the kids legs were ever so slightly separated or they slightly piked at some point in the middle of the jump.
I ague that they all do straight jumps except the point girl because she did something different as she wasn't doing a BHS.
They review the video again and tell me that because of what I already said they were goin to give me an unintentional legality deduction because it looks like they're doing bad toe touches or bad pikes.
And our coaching staff was baffled by this. They were clearly not doing a body position in that particular part if the jump sequence so we shouldn't have been getting a deduction AT ALL but I couldn't argue it any more.
Needless to say I took it out right after that because a) I don't like it, b) if it's like that I'm. It risking the deduction, c) it doesn't help our jump score.
I guess what inferring at is that it's up to the coaches to know all the rules and how to interpret them. If you don't know. FIND OUT.
The company that did our choreography gave several of our teams skills that were not level appropriate. With one team having those elements turn out to be illegal. I caught some of them. Other coaches caught others. While one got caught at a competition and they took that.
While in the case of my senior 2 I'll always feel we shouldn't have been deducted but if I had no choice but to receive the penalty in that case is rather have the unintentional the the full as it truly was an unintentional execution am error.
I think performance error isn't the term we should be using although it means the same thing.
My senior 2 should have been a warning.
Senior 4's deductions absolutely give them the penalty. They performed skills that were illegal. While senior 2 did something totally legal for them but evade of their execution led the judges to believe otherwise.


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This is really tricky. A straight jump means feet together and no bend at the hips. I have definitely seen this many times. But if your toe touch/spread eagle in the back row looks the same as your straight jump with feet apart, then its a skill. Just need to drill it in that they need to be straight up and down with no separation.



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