All-Star 2012-2013 Age Grid For Worlds Teams

[Mclovin]

Not arguing, or anything, but are more kids getting hurt working ROBHS full or ROBHS dub because more kids are working those skills than whip/full, full/full, etc.? Same reason driving in a car is "more dangerous" than flying in a plane...because it's done way more often...

Hmmm, good point. Either way, I still don't want to see tumbling restricted beyond what it already is. But you definitely gave me food for thought...

 

[notimeforthat]

Not arguing, or anything, but are more kids getting hurt working ROBHS full or ROBHS dub because more kids are working those skills than whip/full, full/full, etc.? Same reason driving in a car is "more dangerous" than flying in a plane...because it's done way more often...

That is most definetly true!! But restricting bounding skills wont change that, will it??
I say DEDUCTIONS.
Treat a poorly executed full/double as a bobble and they wont be competed until they are ready. Seems simple to me. I know that is probably opening a can of "gray" ....

 

[tumbleyoda]

See my question is...Is it the kids throwing "bounding" skills that are getting injured or the kids "learning" fulls/doubles? In my experience when a kid is working "bounding" skills they have the conditioning and have for the most part mastered skills that it takes to start "bounding". I'm just confused at what "we" are trying to do. So basically are more kids hurt working whip-full/double, full/full, full/double, double/double or working robhs full or robhs double? I don't understand why "we" are limiting skills that will still be taught wrong!? FIX THE COACHES - FIXES THE PROBLEM!

Egad! You mean we then would have to actually track when the athlete got injured, what they were doing, where they trained to start working that skill or not, were they conditioned for that skill, where they doing it under appropriate supervision and with permission? Were they just told to chuck it because they needed it in the routine and that it would get better in time? Or to throw it or they would be kicked off the team or put on a lower level team?

I actually do my best to track all injuries in my gym. I can look at our level 5 team and tell you that if they are wearing a brace it is not due to initial injury doing fulls, doubles or bounding passes. Usually they got hurt doing something much easier that they were thinking about, or in the case of a few who had injuries/disabilities prior to becoming a cheerleader and the braces help them deal with that issue. Same goes for all of our teams and their appropriate skill level. I need to know if it is something we are doing wrong that we need to fix either in our instruction or with the staff. I can say without reservation that the majority of our injuries this year did not happen in our gym but during school cheer practice, soccer practice, falling down the stairs, tumbling in the grass at home, tumbling on the trampoline at home, or in the home gym down in the basement. They get hurt at home or elsewhere, then come to the gym and don't tell anyone, aggravate it again and now it becomes a gym injury.

yojaehs is right. Fix and train coaches and as Mclovin said hit teams hard on the score sheet for under-rotated fulls, doubles. If it is a tucked or piked full instead of a layout, deduction. IMO adding the Restricted 5 division is enough of an industry fix to address the training/competing issue. Now add the deductions as mentioned and you will start to see a difference. Of course the fans will be upset because in reality they are the ones calling to see all these crazy bounding skills, standing doubles, etc. Never heard one judge wowed by a standing double. I know the argument that we are not trying to be like gymnastics and those skills add to the performance excitement of cheerleading but we cant have it both ways. We are giving too much credit for ugly skills. This then becomes another reason cheer coaches feel they have no option but to put them in a routine to be competitive on that part of the score sheet.

What are "we" really trying to do, and who are "we" really trying to please? I know what my answer would be but then I would sound too much like a cheer conspiracy theorist.

 

[Mamarazzi]

Hmmm, good point. Either way, I still don't want to see tumbling restricted beyond what it already is. But you definitely gave me food for thought...

Agreed. I don't want it limited either. Plus, taking into account the fact that little, little kids bones are relatively pliant, there are fewer actual complete fractures while learning skills normally taught to 4-8-year-olds (RO, ROBHS, etc.) But the older the athletes get, their bones harden. So maybe it's not the skill or the coaching of the skill. Maybe it's the anatomy that just doesn't want to cooperate with what the mind asks it to do.

I'd LOVE to see some research done on the age of the tumbler, skill of the tumbler, injuries sustained by age and skill, and give the rate for gymnastics vs. cheer (maybe this would illustrate the coaches training ability.) THEN, I could support a rule about it.

 

[yojaehs]

Not arguing, or anything, but are more kids getting hurt working ROBHS full or ROBHS dub because more kids are working those skills than whip/full, full/full, etc.? Same reason driving in a car is "more dangerous" than flying in a plane...because it's done way more often...

I hear what you are saying but my point is MAJORITY of the kids working "bounding" skills are being taught correctly. In my experience you don't under rotate a full/dub and then attempt a whip punch or 3/4 punch 1 3/4. So to answer your question, percentage of athletes being injured would be those working full/dubs vs bounding.

 

[socratesofcheer]

FIX THE COACHES - FIXES THE PROBLEM!

I agree. However, no one will admit that they are a bad coach. Therefore, it's always the other guy with the janky tumbling.

Based off of what I see at competitions there are about 15-20 gyms in the country that have any business teaching high level tumbling.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Not arguing, or anything, but are more kids getting hurt working ROBHS full or ROBHS dub because more kids are working those skills than whip/full, full/full, etc.? Same reason driving in a car is "more dangerous" than flying in a plane...because it's done way more often...

Correct. And the lower you make the skill, the higher the rate of injury because more people are attempting that skill. How many athletes get hurt doing BHS, or ROBHS? Far more than fulls or double fulls because more athletes are doing them. So do we outlaw the lower skills too? No. We train the coaches! We certify them. We get coaches that are passionate about what they do and let them do their job. We give the lower level athletes the same quality coaches that we give the higher level athletes, if not better. And we get rid of coaches who may be cheap hires but not committed to being better coaches.

 

[yojaehs]

I agree. However, no one will admit that they are a bad coach. Therefore, it's always the other guy with the janky tumbling.

Based off of what I see at competitions there are about 15-20 gyms in the country that have any business teaching high level tumbling.

You are correct. I only stated that because instead of fixing the problem i.e. fixing the coaches, it's just "take away this skill". The same thing is being done on the high school level as well (I read that they are taking away double downs). Limiting skills does NOT fix the problem. They did it in college and it changed NOTHING (Equal amount of injuries reported via Insurance reports from what I have been told, not saying it's true but from the people I have talked to and asked nothing is different in injury reports). Until there is a MANDATORY coaches training program in place that is REQUIRED but ALL who want to teach cheerleading we are going to keep removing and removing skills. So I agree with you that there aren't many qualified coaches, but if you ask ANY of the "elite" coaches in the industry they are MORE than happy to help. So WHY WHY WHY hasn't this happened!? I was in Doral and there were 30ish tumbling coaches that met (I would say majority were the "elite" tumbling coaching from across the country). And you know what, that's why they are Elite, because they meet, they talk, the brainstorm, they share ideas and help one another. If the REQUIREMENT of education does not happen, then do it yourself. Now, what if they don't? Then PARENTS it's YOUR fault for taking your kid to a gym that doesn't have QUALITY instructors. I want to say it again, TAKING AWAY SKILLS WILL NOT FIX THE PROBLEM!

 

[yojaehs]

I would like to edit and say if you were not in Doral that does not mean that you are not an elite coach, I was just using that as an example.

 

[fullpass]

As a person who reached their PEEK of height at the ripe old age of 11, at 4'11" and who before getting pregnant with my 2nd kid, I topped out at 95lbs and I was 26 years old (no i was never a flyer and only cheered sideline in the 7th grade). Not all tiny people are under the age of 15. I find a lot of this talk insulting...not that i'm taking it personally, it's just that in cheerleading there are a LOT of small people! Let's face it...most tiny people have an easier time of tumbling vs their taller counterparts. They're also typically easier to lift. Just because someone is tiny doesn't mean they're under a certain age, it also doesn't mean they're lazy fliers. Small compact people typically have more body control than long thin people. It's just a body type thing! Quit hating on the petite people!!!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! My CP's team has 5 fliers who are all nearly exactly the same size BUT their ages range by a full 4 years! Clearly the 12 year old who is the same height/weight as the 8 year old is not on the same track for growth. Will they all still be flyers in 3 years? I'm guessing that at least the 12 year old will!

 

[kaylamauro]

A lot of people say that. What do they have to look forward to if they are already cheering at worlds by age 12-13...that's a good question. My oldest CP is 13 by USASF standards. She went to worlds and won last year as a 12 year old. .

I know Em would never lose that spark of wanting to go to worlds!! Her life is this sport and I doubt she would ever not be excited to get to go to worlds!! I've been going to worlds since I was in 5th grade. In 5th grade I went with my j5 team, and 6 grade went with my j5 team, 7th grade went with senior coed and now this year 8th grade going with senior medium all girl. I don't think I'll ever not be excited for worlds. Ive enjoyed each time i've gone and can't wait for hopefully more future ones. Give Em a hug from me! cant wait to see her

 

[Ashay]

I would hate to see a restriction put on tumbling because the competitive aspect of it would be taken away. As far as the injuries if the athlete is struggling with the proper technique and or struggling with completing the skill safely I think its smart to take them back to the basics, for example: hollow body, handstands, lunges, round offs... so on and so fourth. Sometimes its good to refresh the mind on the simple things that are crutial to safe and correct tumbling. I have watched so many videos of athletes under rotating doubles I am shocked they havnt blown there knees out yet. Its 100% the coaches responsibility to assure safety, if the skill is not ready to be thrown then it shouldnt be thrown. Its okay to take a step backward before going forward. I also feel that coaches should be required to have a certain amount of training hours a year on each level before they are allowed to coach at that level or above.

 

[lcheergirl]

I agree. If they take out bounding skills and standing fulls then those who can't teach proper tumbling will continue to push athletes into fulls and doubles when they aren't ready. Injuries will still be happening.

Also if they remove standing fulls and bounding skills then they might as well get rid of the restricted divisions since the only difference will be one is only fulls and the other isn't.

I think a huge problem in cheerleading is they dont teach proper form and this leads to the injuries. How many times do you go to competition and see kids throwing fulls that have bent knees and not setting going into full or double. My daughter was a high level gymnast and learned proper form when tumbling before she was able to progress to the next level. She has been throwing doubles since the age of 10 but they were done correctly and has never had an injury. We cringe sometimes when we see some of these kids landing these skills knowing the force it is putting on their knees. I hate that in cheer to get credit for a tumbling skill no matter what it looks like. Also the conditioning comes into affect with injuries in cheer. I think their has to be more of an emphasis at the local gym level to teach proper technique and that will help eliminate the injuries.

 

[crazycheermom]

So........ getting back to the question... does anyone really KNOW if they are changing the age or not? Great discussion on pros and cons of ages/tumbling, but just would like to know. Anyone's best guess??

 

[fullpass]

I don't think that it has been decided yet. What I've heard is that they will likely put a minimum age of 12 for senior teams starting in 2013-2014. That sounds about right to me. Not that I'm an expert but messing with the current age grid after tryouts would be very unpopular and the 2013-2015 rules are what's 'on the table' right now.
I haven't heard a peep about changing worlds age but I have heard of prominent programs giving strong consideration to placing a bottom on senior teams this upcoming season as a nod to/endorsement of the change that is coming.

But what do I know? Seriously!!!