All-Star 2012-2013 Age Grid For Worlds Teams

[Level5Mom]

I am strongly against limiting skills that kids have been throwing on level 5 for years. It is a bandaid fix to underlying problems that need to be dealt with directly: unqualified tumbling coaches that require no certifications, and athletes that are WAY underconditioned. It doesn't matter what skills you limit, these 2 issues will not get fixed by limiting skill.

We need year round conditioning programs (not just summer) in place for all athletes that focus on making the athletes stronger than the routines we are asking them to perform, and it needs to focus on injury prevention through strength, power, speed, and agility. We need a tumbling coach certification with required written and practical tests, with required annual CEC's to maintain it.

Fix what is broken first instead of taking away skills from athletes who have competed them for years. I hate to see the industry go backwards.

Oh....and lets impose a STIFF deduction for underotated twisting skills NOW. I guarantee coaches will stop having athletes attempt them in competition.

 

[NoOneSpecial]

I agree with everything level 5 mom says. But with even proper certification how do you monitor proper progression within the gym? That the coaches aren't pushing the athletes to the next level when they are not ready?

The tumbling trend has been team fulls to team doubles and now to team combo passes to double. The next logical step would be pushing kids to team bounding skills. Could they be trying to advert getting to that point until proper steps as outlined in level5mom post are in place?

I don't know what the right formula is. I leave that up to the knowledgable people in our industry. I just have noticed the trend of more braces on the floor and would like to see it revert back.

 

[cheermommaRN]

I think it is natural progression of a sport for skills to be pushed (bigger, faster, stronger, more flexible). Back in the day (2004) a level 2 team could go out with basic running passes of ROBHS and if most of your team had standing BHS you were golden. Now in order to be competitive you need full squad backwalkover back handsprings, and multiple trick passes to multiple back handsprings. Level 2 teams are fully extending one legged stunts and having the flyer hold someones hand on the ground or a shoulder sit. Everyone is pushing the envelope.
I have also heard the "rumor" that the Worlds age will be raised to 13 this next year. I haven't heard it from anyone that I would consider reliable until I saw it on here. I like 13 but I also know from talking to parents of younger level 5 kids that it is discouraging to them to be basically chasing a carrot. Just as they think they finally reach it, it gets yanked away from them.
I am completely against limiting skills more than they are now. Taking away skills will only hurt kids that want to participate in college level cheer. I agree with Level5mom that conditioning needs to become as important to this sport as it is to any other one.

 

[drewpate]

First of all, since this next season is not supposed to have any rule changes.... I would really hope it won't and that this is a rumor and believe it is, but we have all been surprised by the USASF and it's lack of transparency before. I'm really kinda tired of getting after the fact explanations instead of just getting things right.

2nd of all, Level5Mom is absolutely correct. I think that for any requirements to be passed upon gyms there might be a different model for our sport needed (and im not sayibg that would be hood either) but that's a whole new discussion lol. However I don't see why gyms don't adopt these views.

For my gym it has paid dividends. We never pushed skills too fast before, but our progress just wasn't there. After implementing what before parents would've seen as a ridiculous amount of conditioning to our tumbling and all star (so even if they don't get it in practice they get it in tumbling since every kid takes at least one class) our kids have picked up skills 10x faster.

I used to wonder how gyms got very young athletes twisting early or doing elite stunts, and maybe other gyms are just good at getting kids to do it, but without our conditioning it just wouldn't happen. For example, our mini 2 started out with twenty kinda good backhandsprings, with our entire program only having one mini kid with a tuck or higher who was on our j4. We ramped up the difficulty in our level 3 tumbling classes (which you have to have standing series and running series to get into) and condition the heck out of the kids. They don't know what standing still is lol, they probably condition 40 out 60 minutes in those classes. I didn't let any of them tuck with a spot even for two months where they did bhs speed conditioning, body awareness drills, and tuck specific conditioning. Now, 10 of those minis have tucks, 2 of those just got layouts, 6 can two to tuck, a couple can even toe one to tuck.
This might not be huge for some gyms but going from one mini age kid getting a tuck the season prior, that's a huge increase. Our kids weren't better athletes, I'm a good rumbling coach but no Debbie love, I can only attribute it to our conditioning. If we push those numbers (in a gun of less than 200 athletes at the moment) consistently, I think 4-5 years down the road our level 5 program will be just fine. And I feel we are doing it safely. Nobody that wasn't on a four or five had a serious injury this year, only two were totally due to cheer (a combo of football basketball and tumbling did a number to one guys cartilage ) and out of the other two or three one was a broken nose in warmups, one was a very well conditioned gymnast super senioring for us throwing her full 'just one more time' and the other was on an athlete not as well conditioned tbh. One injury is too many, but we learn from mistakes, move on and don't repeat them.

Wow I get really long winded sometimes but I've been drinking the conditioning kool aid like it was crack lately I have another theory about the increase in braces that someone mentioned but I'll save it for later.

 

[Num1Stunta]

I think it is natural progression of a sport for skills to be pushed (bigger, faster, stronger, more flexible). Back in the day (2004) a level 2 team could go out with basic running passes of ROBHS and if most of your team had standing BHS you were golden. Now in order to be competitive you need full squad backwalkover back handsprings, and multiple trick passes to multiple back handsprings. Level 2 teams are fully extending one legged stunts and having the flyer hold someones hand on the ground or a shoulder sit. Everyone is pushing the envelope.
I have also heard the "rumor" that the Worlds age will be raised to 13 this next year. I haven't heard it from anyone that I would consider reliable until I saw it on here. I like 13 but I also know from talking to parents of younger level 5 kids that it is discouraging to them to be basically chasing a carrot. Just as they think they finally reach it, it gets yanked away from them.
I am completely against limiting skills more than they are now. Taking away skills will only hurt kids that want to participate in college level cheer. I agree with Level5mom that conditioning needs to become as important to this sport as it is to any other one.

What you're saying is all true Just wanted to point out though, that current college rules do not even permit doubles in tumbling, because they compete on a non-spring floor, so I don't think that limiting level 5 tumbling skills would have much of an effect on that. But, I do agree with you that skills shouldn't be limited. That's why we have restricted divisions IMO!

 

[Rudags]

Well I just asked Les Stella and he said he hasn't heard this rule change for ages. So if Les hasn't heard it I find it hard to believe. Therefore I will also conclude that it is just a rumor. Not true

Thanks for clarifying. Im still interested in knowing the rule changes. IDK if its true or not - I just know I heard it from someone reputable (you know.. not from the Fierce Board, LOL) Id like to take this person on their word.... I don't seem t being a lie. But I hope its not true!

 

[yojaehs]

This was brought up at Doral, many were all FOR changing the age range. It was also stated that the AGE grid can change from year to year not every two like "rules". Honestly I don't care what it is, I just wish they would make it something and quit changing it every year or every other year etc. etc. My ONLY request for age grids is that ALL divisions ALL levels have a bottom age.

As for limiting skills, they did it in college and the injury rate hasn't changed at all (from the college coaches that I have spoken with bc this was something I was curious about when doubles got outlawed).
As Level5Mom stated, it's a bandaid. Until there are LEGIT requirements made for tumbling coaches, it doesn't matter if it's double-double or backhandspring, injuries will still run ramp-id throughout all-star cheerleading. I spoke specifically with Debbie Love and Victor about offering a "hands-on" tumbling coaches clinic at each Regional meeting, coaches that attend those meetings are certified, coaches that don't aren't, I don't understand how much simpler and safer it can be so it can at least get started. But idk if that is something that will take off or not, I pray that it will because until something like that is REQUIRED (which I ALSO think should be done with stunting and baskets as well) we are going to continue to have this conversation every year.

 

[SarahS]

I spoke specifically with Debbie Love and Victor about offering a "hands-on" tumbling coaches clinic at each Regional meeting, coaches that attend those meetings are certified, coaches that don't aren't, I don't understand how much simpler and safer it can be so it can at least get started. But idk if that is something that will take off or not, I pray that it will because until something like that is REQUIRED (which I ALSO think should be done with stunting and baskets as well) we are going to continue to have this conversation every year.

That would be awesome.

 

[Calibabyy]

I know this thread is about worlds teams, but I agree that there should be a bottom age for all senior teams. At my old gym, there were 6 year old flyers on senior 4 being based by 16 year olds. And they won at major competitions with all these teeny tiny flyers... I felt bad for the teams who competed with actual senior aged kids. It's just not fair.

 

[cheer36mom]

i feel that if they are going to put a bottom age on worlds divisions then they need to put a bottom age on all senior divisions

 

[redsmom]

i feel that if they are going to put a bottom age on worlds divisions then they need to put a bottom age on all senior divisions

Just to clarify, there already is a bottom age on world divisions its 12. The question is whether it will be changed to 13.

I do however agree that they should probably have the bottom ages on at least all the senior levels.

 

[cheermommaRN]

Putting a bottom age on all senior divisions would be a bullet to most small gyms. What do you do with that 8 year old with a layout? What if you live in an area that is mostly small gyms and no one has a junior or youth level 4? Just tell her "sorry kid, your way to talented...there is no place for you in our sport?" I have no issue with little kids being on a non-worlds senior team if they hold their own and have the skills. What I don't like watching is a 6 year old basically nugget in the back the whole routine and then run up to do stunts. It's kind of like that video of the 3 year old stunting....anyone can make a toddler hit, especially when you can fit both of their feet in one hand.

 

[yojaehs]

Putting a bottom age on all senior divisions would be a bullet to most small gyms. What do you do with that 8 year old with a layout? What if you live in an area that is mostly small gyms and no one has a junior or youth level 4? Just tell her "sorry kid, your way to talented...there is no place for you in our sport?" I have no issue with little kids being on a non-worlds senior team if they hold their own and have the skills. What I don't like watching is a 6 year old basically nugget in the back the whole routine and then run up to do stunts. It's kind of like that video of the 3 year old stunting....anyone can make a toddler hit, especially when you can fit both of their feet in one hand.

First let me say that I 100% see your point, however I believe (like with the "World's" bottom age) I would like for them to stick to an age. If a rule is made (Worlds teams or mini level 1) it might hurt for a year but then the adjustment will be made. What is annoying is when you say "12 is the bottom age" so your PROGRAM makes the adjustments as well as the kids, then all of a sudden BOOM 13 is the age!? I just don't get it. I believe that every division should have a bottom age, for every "small gym" that can find a reason to keep it, don't forget, so can a "large gym". Forget looking at YOUR situation, look at the BIG PICTURE, what's best for ALL? I think what is best for ALL is to keep ages as close together as possible. I believe if your making team decisions for ONE or TWO kids it's not what is best for the WHOLE.

 

[notimeforthat]

Were these changes voted on at the last rules change? I really dont recall...especially the one ones about limiting tumbling skills... My poor cp would be "in the holding tank" for 2 years plus not able to throw skills she has worked really hard for for the rest of her career... 8 more years of age eligibility.... anyone know of any good power tumbling programs in the north east??
and yes my daughter may not be the norm, and I can understand the changes but it still stinks for some...

 

[Level5Mom]

In regards to bottom age rules, keep in mind that as an industry we are wanting (1) more difficulty in stunts each year (2) no crossovers and (3) no bottom age rule. I think it will be nearly impossible to have all 3 and be competitive. If we knew that a squad of 12 would be just fairly against a squad of 20, it could work....but we all know that isn't typcial. What do we want the most as an industry?