All-Star Amazing Level 2 Teams?

[CheerMomNTx]

Even if you will face 20 level 2 kids on a youth 1 team all year?

Now in this case, even 20 lvl 2's competiting on a lvl 1 doesn't mean those lvl 2 can work those mad lvl one skills. Have you seen a senior lvl 5 kid try to do a back walkover lately? We witnessed this a couple of months ago and it was hilarious!!! Just thought this was funny because of the visual that came into my head ;) (back to the discusssion at hand)

 

[CoachTamara]

There must be, since other sports do it (maybe not perfectly, but certainly better than what we do today). We just need to find the right way to do it for cheerleading.

I don't think we will ever find a perfect answer. But we can get it close and let the industry and the athletes close any remaining gaps. Whistle-blowing is clearly not out of favor, as evidenced by this thread. While you still have more people that care about the integrity of the sport than care about winning at any cost, coaches like you will come out on top. ;)

I think the biggest difference between cheer and other sports is the fact that we've been allowing this for so long that it is the norm, and changing it would cause outrage.

I get a small gym needs crossovers to make teams and make teams that are competitive. But there has to be a line. This weekend my youth 1 of 18 will go against a team that is 32 kids and mostly all upper level kids. I watched senior level 4 girls get off the floor and go to the youth 1 team, and watched almost every kid in their program compete at least two, if not three times at the last competition. Especially in the lower levels, I just don't see the need. You can be a level 1 team that is competitive with only 8 kids, because you can do all the stunts needed (I'm thinking at max an extension and two shoulder sits for the pyramid). So, if the limit was 3 crossovers, shouldn't you be able to fill it? That's saying you would only need 5 level 1 kids that would not be able to hang at level 2.

 

[cheeeeer93]

I'm not from SOT. Infact, I wasn't even in Dallas. I was more just saying that if I looked at a lineup and saw that I was competing against SOT, I would be scared because they are such a good gym across the board.

So no, I did not wish a fall upon them. I never would for any team. And I am not a LOUSY winner........... Don't read too much into my posts when I never said these things.

 

[SarahS]

This was one of the best ideas I saw come out of that discussion. Was it you who posted this? What level 4-5 cheerleader wants to be wandering around Jamfest SN/Cheersport/NCA/Worlds with a jacket that says 'Level 2 Champion'? Love it. :)

It was me :) Yay, I have a good idea once in a while. LOL.

 

[CheerMomNTx]

This was one of the best ideas I saw come out of that discussion. Was it you who posted this? What level 4-5 cheerleader wants to be wandering around Jamfest SN/Cheersport/NCA/Worlds with a jacket that says 'Level 2 Champion'? Love it. :)

While I think this is a great idea, I don't think EPs would go for it. It isn't cost effective for them. Great idea though.

 

[TheVipersMom]

as a coach, i respectfully disagree with your thoughts on crossovers and small gyms. We are a small gym (less than 75 athletes) and this is the first season that we have used crossovers. It has been our most successful year yet. We were able to take our kids and put them on teams that were level appropriate instead of putting them on whatever team they fit on age wise. Last year we had a Youth 2 which is where all of our Youth age kids were placed. There were a number of kids that were not ready for the sharktank that is Youth 2, and it held back the kids that were ready and were working hard. Fast forward to this year- we currently have a small number of kids who are truley a Youth 1 (age and skill), yet there are not enough of these kids to make a full team. We learned our lesson on this last year- so we made them a team. We have girls who cross up from our Mini 2 team to help fill out the Youth 1. The Mini 2 girls that crossover are bases and back spots on the Mini 2- on Youth 1, two of them are fliers. They get to experience different roles of the sport, while making a successful team for those Youth 1 athletes. We have the same type of situation with our older teams.

being able to use those crossovers to make sure kids are all appropriatley placed on teams has made all the difference in the world for us and our success.

I agree with you for small gyms I think depending on what you have it may be necessary to use crossovers to make those other teams better. Yes you don't have to but sometimes it is better for the team.

At our gym

Tiny 1 has about 12 kids and none of them crossover.

Mini 1 has 25 kids.
2 of those kids (my cp being 1 of them) crossed up at the beginning of the season to youth 2. They both just had a janky standing BHS. Now these 2 kids have back tucks:)
Then our youth 2 had 2 people quit like 2 weeks before a competition so we crossed up 2 more minis that had just got a standing BHS.
So our minis have 4 kids who are on youth 2.

Youth 2 has a total of 15 kids including the 4 who cross up from minis.
3 do not have a BHS but are to old for minis.
& 3 kids have a tuck. The 2 who cross up from minis. And 1 other kid has a tuck on youth2 but she now crosses up to our jr3 because someone quit off that team.


Our jr3 has probably 20 kids including the girl who crossed up from youth2.
3 don't have a tuck. (one of them has one they are just blocking)
I think maybe 3 of them cross down to sr 2 and they fly because they base on jr3.
1 of the jr3 girls cross to sr4 because she has gotten all her level 4 skills.

Sr2 has maybe 16 kids including the 3 that I said cross from jr3.
One of the girls on sr 2 just started cheering but probably has some of the strongest legs i have ever seen. She got all her level 4 skills this season because of those legs so after the first competition they allow her to cross to sr4 since a girl quit.

Sr4 has maybe 22 kids including the cross up from jr3 and the cross up from sr2.

Obviously we didn't have that many crossovers initially that we do now but they definitely aren't to stack teams. Only 1 girl crossed more then 1 level and she obtained all skills during this season. This wasn't necessarily directed to you but just to anyone in general. Crossovers are not the problem it is the level and manner in which you are using them. I think if crossovers were banned or extremely limited it would definitely hurt small gyms. We used more crossovers partially to fill spots of people who quit right before competitions. It was easier to put someone in the place of the quitter then to rearrange the whole routine in 3 practices and change everyone's part when one person can come in and learn and pick up the routine. We would have been better off if people just fulfilled there contract but that just doesn't always happen.


Also I want to see putting the levels on the jackets would be a wonderful idea!!!

 

[LittleMiss]

Now in this case, even 20 lvl 2's competiting on a lvl 1 doesn't mean those lvl 2 can work those mad lvl one skills. Have you seen a senior lvl 5 kid try to do a back walkover lately? We witnessed this a couple of months ago and it was hilarious!!! Just thought this was funny because of the visual that came into my head ;) (back to the discusssion at hand)

I had the same visual.......Also most can't even do a front walker over.

 

[TheVipersMom]

Now in this case, even 20 lvl 2's competiting on a lvl 1 doesn't mean those lvl 2 can work those mad lvl one skills. Have you seen a senior lvl 5 kid try to do a back walkover lately? We witnessed this a couple of months ago and it was hilarious!!! Just thought this was funny because of the visual that came into my head ;) (back to the discusssion at hand)

Yes I think it is funny! A lot of our sr4 don't have back walkovers. I heard it was because when they were younger the levels were different so it was like BHS and down. So since the BHS was more important they would go straight to that and never learn the back walkover. Now with it being a level 1 skill thats what you try to attain when your on that level and don't just start with a BHS!

 

[kristenthegreat]

Picture ID. Name, bar code that will be matched what team(s) they are registered to compete with. At check in, scanned ID is compared to list of members competing and the picture is matched to the athlete holding it. More than x number of athletes competing up/down a set number of levels, things get dicey. Barring that- even if for the year when they're testing it, they just monitor the data to see WHO is actually doing what. Once you get numbers on how gyms are actually operating, you can see where you can adjust the rules/crossovers accordingly. The problem is- right now we're operating on a gym by gym basis instead of seeing the numbers as a whole. You want to try to stretch the rules, fine. But it will be known..

Also- if there isn't a level embroidered on it, you can do a patch thing at the competition. Hire some extra people (boost the economy) who put the Level National Champion patches on for them, that way people can't sneak off without putting it on to cover up what they did. Boom. Problem solved.

 

[BlueCat]

I don't know enough about the specific situations mentioned here to directly comment on the gyms or teams in particular. However, as a general comment, there are several things that are unethical IMO, or at best tacky:

1. blatant sandbagging
2. directly copying choreography, music, unique skills directly from another team - particularly within the same season/division
3. recruiting athletes who you KNOW to be a part of another program (approaching them first)
4. not teaching proper sportsmanship (booing other teams or cheering for a rivals mistakes or injuries)

None of those things are directly against the rules. None of them are "cheating" in a technical sense. The only real "downside" to your program comes from the hit your program's reputation takes. I suppose every gym owner has to do what is best for their program. If a set of NCA jackets helps you more than the damage to your reputation hurts you, then I suppose you have made a smart business decision.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

If more people thought like us, then our free market economy would regulate it. BUT since many upon many parents have the mindset "It's all about the jacket" parents continue to allow their CP's to be put on these lower level teams. And instead of scooping their kids up and taking them to a place that has character and integrity, they tend to leave their kids at the gym that keeps winning. Even if they are winning unethically.

Please don't lump all cheer parents into one group. I personally would rather stay at our small gym that has only won an NCA jacket once (and neither of my 2 CPs were on that team) then go to a larger gym that has won an NCA jacket 5 years in a row. My goal for having my daughters in competitive cheer is not to win jackets but to learn valuable life lessons. Don't get me wrong, I would love for my daughters to win an NCA jacket, however the challenges that they face at a small gym is preparing them more for the challenges that they will face later on in life than winning multiple jackets.

 

[TheUltimateFan]

It was me :) Yay, I have a good idea once in a while. LOL.

This is why brainstorming works....people were asking what was to prevent an athlete from declaring themselves at a level below their skill set if athlete registration were required. Your comment on putting level info on the jackets made me think about that and triggered this idea; if those athlete registration IDs were visibly color-coded by skill level it would make the compliance check by EPs a lot easier and might prevent quite a few athletes from deliberately understating their skills in registration. Wearing that 'black card' (or green, or red or whatever designates the highest skill level) at an event would be another 'badge of achievement', just like a jacket is.

So even if your idea doesn't get executed exactly as it was stated, this is encouragement to anyone who is passionate about fixing this - all ideas contribute in different ways to the final solution!

 

[XtremeWpg]

If more people thought like us, then our free market economy would regulate it. BUT since many upon many parents have the mindset "It's all about the jacket" parents continue to allow their CP's to be put on these lower level teams. And instead of scooping their kids up and taking them to a place that has character and integrity, they tend to leave their kids at the gym that keeps winning. Even if they are winning unethically.

Its this exact reason that I'm happy all the parents I've dealt with are blissfully unaware of the prestige of certain events and what levels exactly mean!

 

[Zinger_bebe]

This is why brainstorming works....people were asking what was to prevent an athlete from declaring themselves at a level below their skill set if athlete registration were required. Your comment on putting level info on the jackets made me think about that and triggered this idea; if those athlete registration IDs were visibly color-coded by skill level it would make the compliance check by EPs a lot easier and might prevent quite a few athletes from deliberately understating their skills in registration. Wearing that 'black card' (or green, or red or whatever designates the highest skill level) at an event would be another 'badge of achievement', just like a jacket is.

So even if your idea doesn't get executed exactly as it was stated, this is encouragement to anyone who is passionate about fixing this - all ideas contribute in different ways to the final solution!

And the level 5 athlete with the black card is going to stick out like a sore thumb lining up for warmups with a level 2 team...

 

[aggie1983]

I'm not from SOT. Infact, I wasn't even in Dallas. I was more just saying that if I looked at a lineup and saw that I was competing against SOT, I would be scared because they are such a good gym across the board.

So no, I did not wish a fall upon them. I never would for any team. And I am not a LOUSY winner........... Don't read too much into my posts when I never said these things.

I was so confused by her over the top response to you that I went back to look for your original post because I knew her take on it wasn't what I remembered reading.