All-Star Cali Aces Jamz Incident

[wide-worlds-joy]

I think the reason why cheer is treated so differently than other sports when it comes to injuries is because in other sports like basketball or football, yes it may negatively affect the team if one player is out injured, but they don't need every single one of their players on the field at all times. In a routine, every single person is important, and most of the time teams don't have backups, because it wouldn't be fair to just have alternates learning and practicing a whole routine for months and then just having them sit out for the competition. Even in dance or other performance type sports, yeah, the formation might be off, but most of the time they don't have to be lifting other people, and nobody else is LITERALLY depending on them for something in the routine/game to happen.

I can understand part of it, but when you have a flier who is important, or a backspot or a base who injures them self doing a back flip in the beginning of the routine, you have one person who is depended upon to catch someone who is moving through the air at a high rate of speed, and to do it safely. If that's not depending on someone, then I don't know what is. A base who injures herself isn't going to be doing the best job she can do to catch her flier, and if she pulls out, then there's only two other people who can catch the flier, with the potential of more injuries if they don't do their job exactly right.

I got you on the replacements, but I would venture to guess that there are some who can or would sit out for not being as good, and who could sub if it came to it. But I also am not an expert.

 

[L5cheermom]

I just hope that Cali is requiring a release from a doctor for the girls with head injuries, you only get one brain and you need to protect it!

If they experienced a concussion they really should sit out for 6 months to a year. With a concussive injury the risks of long term complications increase significantly when there are multiple injuries within 6 months. The University of Pittsburg did a study in 2010 that showed athletes who experience as few as three concussions were 9 times more likely to experience loss of consciousness and memory loss than players with no history. Our society as a whole does not support adequate rehabilitation in these circumstances.

 

[cheernerd5678]

I can understand part of it, but when you have a flier who is important, or a backspot or a base who injures them self doing a back flip in the beginning of the routine, you have one person who is depended upon to catch someone who is moving through the air at a high rate of speed, and to do it safely. If that's not depending on someone, then I don't know what is. A base who injures herself isn't going to be doing the best job she can do to catch her flier, and if she pulls out, then there's only two other people who can catch the flier, with the potential of more injuries if they don't do their job exactly right.

I got you on the replacements, but I would venture to guess that there are some who can or would sit out for not being as good, and who could sub if it came to it. But I also am not an expert.

I believe that's what she's saying... In other sports, injuries are treated more because the player isn't depended on as much as in cheer, where everyone depends on each other b/c of stunts.

 

[L5cheermom]

I will reserve judgement on coaches stopping for others, but I can say safely that if MY child were in that kind of trouble on the mat, you would probably find me scaling walls to get to her. I absolutely trust CPs coaches to make calls for the team in good experienced (which I have none of) judgement, but those girls stumbling around.. Not on my watch.

Speedy recovery to those kids!!

I've already warned my kids about that very thing. I'm a nurse and one of those "take some Advil and ice it" kinda moms, but I'm afraid my picture would have ended up on some bulletin board at every EPs home office with some embarrassing caption warning their employees about me. Kudos to those moms for their self-control. It's never been one of my strong suits.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I believe that's what she's saying... In other sports, injuries are treated more because the player isn't depended on as much as in cheer, where everyone depends on each other b/c of stunts.

I think they're saying 2 different things. Callmeboots is saying that the reason injured kids don't sit out is because the team needs them and is depending on them so they don't have to find someone else and re-work the routine. wide-worlds-joy is saying that they should sit out, because you should never depend on someone who is injured to be in their normal top physical form - it's very dangerous to have someone who is injured responsible for doing something you normally have to be in good physical condition for. I, for one, would not want to think that the person between me and the floor had a sprained anything (or worse had left the floor and they kept the routine going without telling me she was gone). I would want the person catching me to be healthy and able to do so.

(***Rant ahead. Sorry, but this thread just really gets under my skin.)

It's interesting when reading this thread that without even looking at the names and avatars I could tell you who is mom/dad, coach, cheerleader. Because it is very clear that the parents are the only people on here thinking in terms of anything past the next competition - as parents, we worry about life after cheer and whether or not these injuries will be permanent problems because they aren't treated properly. And the athletes and coaches are very obviously thinking in terms of "We need to compete. Period." I don't see any foresight from athletes and coaches about permanent damage - I just see "Can you physically stand for 2:30? Because if you can, that's all that matters. I couldn't care less if you have ongoing problems from this. I care that we are counting on you and you need to come through for us."

What Callmeboots is saying is very true, I'm just saying it's not OK. I don't care if you need my cp this Saturday for 2:30, I need her for another 80-90 years and I'd appreciate it if you didn't break her permanently.

This goes with the other thread (regarding the sexual abuse of minors). Before anyone jumps all over me, I'm NOT saying the 2 things are remotely comparable, just that they both speak to the same issue in the cheer industry - that the team matters more than anything, even someone's safety, health, and well-being. "Don't tell on someone who is abusing you - we might not get to go to Worlds!" "Don't tell anyone you're actually too hurt to compete - we might not get <insert t-shirt, trophy, bid, whatever here>!"

I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble (including some parents) but Worlds doesn't mean a hill of beans in the real world. Is it a great goal to have kids aim for throughout their cheer life? Yep. Is it the end all be all of life, more important than anything you'll ever do in the 100 years after Worlds? Not even close. Treat your body/mind (or your cp's body/mind) accordingly.

Rant over. Sorry, but this is one of the reasons we quit cheer. (Not the main one, but this sure helped convince me) I absolutely cannot stand the way this industry treats injuries. As with everything else in life - parents, know when to step in. No one is going to protect your child if you don't.

 

[katstat1]

I've been following this thread too and it really bothers me as a parent. I have never really talked to cp about what to do if she gets injured during a routine. She is competing this weekend so I talked to her a little about this thread and told her if she ever hits her head during a routine to get off the floor and not keep going. She's a flyer so mainly thinking if she goes down hard and hits floor with her head. I really don't know what she would have done if it happened but at least we've talked about it some. I also don't know if her coaches have ever talked to them about what to do in case of injury and at what point they need to leave floor. I think this is something that should be brought up more and would love to see some kind of regulations about routines stopping when injuries happen.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I've been following this thread too and it really bothers me as a parent. I have never really talked to cp about what to do if she gets injured during a routine. She is competing this weekend so I talked to her a little about this thread and told her if she ever hits her head during a routine to get off the floor and not keep going. She's a flyer so mainly thinking if she goes down hard and hits floor with her head. I really don't know what she would have done if it happened but at least we've talked about it some. I also don't know if her coaches have ever talked to them about what to do in case of injury and at what point they need to leave floor. I think this is something that should be brought up more and would love to see some kind of regulations about routines stopping when injuries happen.

Good point! I never thought about this. I know coaches talk to them about what to do if their bow falls off :rolleyes: because my little sure as heck knows not to pick it up, but I wonder if she's ever been told what to do if she's injured. I know my older one would know what to do because she's grown, but I bet little cp wouldn't have a clue - and would probably try to keep going just because that's what she's been told to do no matter what.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Just-a-Mom - Isn't this the time Worlds Scoresheets come out? Cold, but there you have it. Maybe instead of focusing how many people I'm allowed to high-five or whether or not someone has cried their allotted 5 tears after the routine, they should have put something addressing INJURIES in the packet.

PLAN B:
Putting
Lives
Ahead of
National
Banners

A certified outline of how to handle cheer injuries. Coaches who pass the test and prove they have the guidelines in place can list it as a 'credential', gyms get discounts on insurance or some other USASF bonus, plus a listing. Covers practice, competition (including warm-up) safety/injury protocol. EPs who have the system in place state they have EMTs in place as well as other safety guidelines. Might very well cover warm-up times as dictated for athlete safety. There you go, USASF. You're welcome. Now make it happen.

 

[5-6-7-8]

I think the reason why cheer is treated so differently than other sports when it comes to injuries is because in other sports like basketball or football, yes it may negatively affect the team if one player is out injured, but they don't need every single one of their players on the field at all times. In a routine, every single person is important, and most of the time teams don't have backups, because it wouldn't be fair to just have alternates learning and practicing a whole routine for months and then just having them sit out for the competition. Even in dance or other performance type sports, yeah, the formation might be off, but most of the time they don't have to be lifting other people, and nobody else is LITERALLY depending on them for something in the routine/game to happen.
...

Maybe we need to develop a way to have a "bench" for cheer.

So I started thinking about this (as a former benchwarmer in HS myself.) While I did HS sports (read: cheap), I still went to all practices, learned the plays, etc. but sat on the bench a lot of the time. I know in other sports there is most definitely a bunch of kids who RARELY get to play (3rd string QB rarely, if ever, sees any game action, but I am sure he is there every practice waiting for the chance.) And along the way, I am sure parents have paid plenty of money for that chance. This seems quite acceptable to those players (not favorable, but accepted). But to say it's not fair...should it have to be fair?

So I might be so bold as to ask why we feel so entitled with this sport? Could this "everyone makes a team" mentality be hurting our sport? (And to be fair, I don't know the answer, I just throw this thought out there for discussion. I am not sure how I would feel if my CP was just an alternate.)

Maybe an answer would be to have a minimum of 3-4 alternates per team (a flyer, a base, and a back spot). And the alternates could be crossovers, meaning they have a main team, and an alternate team.

 

[cheermeup]

This is a pet peeve of mine. I'm Not directing this at Cali aces maybe we need a new thread.

I'm a pediatric nurse and we see lots of sports injuries in the Emergency room. I have a trauma nurse certificate and concussions were a big part of the curriculum. People do not take them serious enough. A concussion is a microscopic injury that affects the entire brain. It's a global brain injury, that's very serious. There is something called post concussive syndrome that may occur immediately after the injury or days, weeks, even months later. The kid could be just happening along at life and start having headaches and other problems, this is a sign that the brain doesn't heal in a week.

That's just concussions. When there is an injured kid and she is competing/practicing without seeing the doctor, I tell her and her mom that they need to put their health first. I always say, you have to live in your body the rest of your life, this competition is something you won't even remember in 5 years. It also bothers me because injured people's bodies compensate and I feel they are putting the rest of the team at risk, the flyer may hold herself different in the pyramid, the base may hold her posture different. There are numerous examples, I'm just throwing these out there. Also when you compensate, your mechanics are different so you are putting yourself at a higher risk for more injury.

Just a pet peeve of mine. I think of kids whom I personally know who are 25 and have the knees of an 80 year old.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

Just-a-Mom - Isn't this the time Worlds Scoresheets come out? Cold, but there you have it. Maybe instead of focusing how many people I'm allowed to high-five or whether or not someone has cried their allotted 5 tears after the routine, they should have put something addressing INJURIES in the packet.

PLAN B:
Putting
Lives
Ahead of
National
Banners

A certified outline of how to handle cheer injuries. Coaches who pass the test and prove they have the guidelines in place can list it as a 'credential', gyms get discounts on insurance or some other USASF bonus, plus a listing. Covers practice, competition (including warm-up) safety/injury protocol. EPs who have the system in place state they have EMTs in place as well as other safety guidelines. Might very well cover warm-up times as dictated for athlete safety. There you go, USASF. You're welcome. Now make it happen.

Yes. All of this. I agree - even though I think some of those other things could use rules (uniforms, time limit on floor, etc.) I think those are things that we are years from having time to deal with. Those are things you make rules about when everything else is taken care of. I can't believe there are rules about tummies and high fives, but no rules about stopping routines for injuries, having EMTs at competitions, etc. Unacceptable. This shouldn't be a decision that is made in the moment - there should be a cut and dried policy.

So I might be so bold as to ask why we feel so entitled with this sport? Could this "everyone makes a team" mentality be hurting our sport? (And to be fair, I don't know the answer, I just throw this thought out there for discussion. I am not sure how I would feel if my CP was just an alternate.)

Maybe an answer would be to have a minimum of 3-4 alternates per team (a flyer, a base, and a back spot). And the alternates could be crossovers, meaning they have a main team, and an alternate team.

I agree with this. Entitlement is the perfect word. And using crossovers for this would be perfect. You could tell someone they're on Senior 3 and an alternate for Senior 5. Having alternates ready would make it much more likely that injuries would be treated as they should and allowed to heal properly. If everyone is so worried about being fair then make an effort to have the alternates be people who want to be on those teams (like an athlete who is aaaalllmost ready for Senior 5 but not quite there yet) - I'll bet those kids would JUMP at the chance to even be an alternate. I realize this wouldn't work for Mini 1, but truthfully those aren't the teams this is happening on anyway (I think they don't have a lot of injuries, and when they do they just compete without that kid).

 

[notyourcheermom]

Having EMTs present. I am wondering if it is not the venue that requires it. Where we live, if you go to the coliseum for a cheer comp, EMTs are present. If you go for a concert, EMTs are present. You notice them, because they are always standing off to the side watching talking to the cops who are also always present at every event, so I'm thinking the coliseum requires everyone who has anything there to hire them. Maybe not, but that's what I believe. Maybe it's a City ordinance because at every event we go to, they are there. Boat show? You'll see them.

 

[notyourcheermom]

I bet it has to do with meeting requirements to be covered by insurance in each area. Not sure if it can be different in each part of the state or it's statewide. Definitely know it can and is different state to state.

 

[CoachKelly]

We hold a Cheer comp at our High School for a fundraiser for our All Star squad and only have maybe 20 teams if that but we have medical personnel there. The first year we had it a local college student that just graduated in Sports medicine was hired, last year two EMT's were there.

 

[wide-worlds-joy]

wide-worlds-joy is saying that they should sit out, because you should never depend on someone who is injured to be in their normal top physical form - it's very dangerous to have someone who is injured responsible for doing something you normally have to be in good physical condition for. I, for one, would not want to think that the person between me and the floor had a sprained anything (or worse had left the floor and they kept the routine going without telling me she was gone). I would want the person catching me to be healthy and able to do so.

That's exactly it, and I'm sorry I wasn't clear (I blame third shift work and pain medications for that). Injuries are serious, as the nurses and EMTs have stated. There's unknown effects and additional problems to even something as simple as a sprained ankle.

I just recently had surgery for a staph infection. There were all kinds of complications. I would hope someone would not be depending on me to catch a girl, even one who is only 100 lbs in a case like that because I physically couldn't do it. A head injury, whether the base or the flier, or even the backspot, could have all kinds of unknown effects, such as brain swelling and so on. Because there's so many unknown complications, I would think that simply from a participant safety point of view, sitting out would be mandated by AT LEAST the coaches.

I mean, when I was in karate, someone who was kicked in the head and who lost consciousness, even for a second, was benched for at least two months. These girls had their scalps ripped open, and the point flier was doing flips and spins still. I mean, kudos to her for going on, but that could have potentially caused a stroke or hemorrhage and killed her. In which case we would be having a very different discussion.

Coaches, gyms and those who sponsor and train these teams really should be the ones pushing and motivating the competition groups to put standards in place for safety. The competition organizers could care less, it's not their kids getting hurt, and as some have said, Worlds isn't useful for anything other than a "that's nice" on a resume. And a medal or trophy won't bring a blown knee back to functioning.

I am NOT saying stop competitive cheer. I'm saying apply the same standards to the safety of the athletes as is used in EVERY other sport out there. Remember the protest storm that happened when Greg Louganis hit his head on the 50 meter platform? He was nearly banned from the rest of the Olympics, and others were depending on him to dive and dive well. Kerry Scruggs and many others have teammates depending on them to perform and perform well, but when injured they were benched and the team went on. If a coach or gym had insisted on an injured participant continuing to do, with the possibility of permanent harm as a result, I honestly think that it would have been such a storm of protest the Federal Government would have been involved eventually.

Sorry, rant over for now. I just think that it's stupefying that we are discussing the kids continuing to perform with injuries that could either be life threatening under ANY other circumstances or ones that could cause permanent damage at 15-20 and effect them for the next 50 years or more. To me, it's a no-brainer. The cheerleader stops performing, period. They don't perform again until they can be demonstrated to have fully recovered, period. The team deals with it and goes on, period. Alternate routines to compensate for the missing person are used, substitutes or understudies go in, period.

And I say all this as a fan who never had a chance to cheer, but really wanted to and would have done a heck of a lot to actually have the opportunity. The sport, IMO, must focus on the safety of the performers FIRST, then the trophy. After all, if the person doing the standing back is hurt to a point where they can't do the competitive cheer ever again, then their skill is useless and we can't see them perform it.