All-Star D1 And D2 Competitions

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King

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Dec 4, 2009
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So here is an idea spurred by a few other threads and posts. What if there were D2 and D1 gyms, and they could only compete against other D2 and D1 gyms?

Here is the premise:

A D1 gym is just like current allstar right now. Worlds, Level 5's, all that stuff. All the competitions would remain the same.

A D2 gym is slightly different. They are restricted and cannot go past Level 3. D2 competitions cannot be held at the same venue at the same time as D1 competitions.

Gyms must declare by March 1st to the USASF if they are a D1 or D2 gym (so before essentially before tryouts) and may not change divisions during the year.

What does this help to create? For gyms secluded in smaller places a more level playing field. Kids entering into allstar are only aware of the world around them. If they go to D2 events and all the see is D2 cheerleading they can win their, succeed, and be happy with how they do. There should, essentially, be more D2 gyms than D1 gyms. Levels 1 - 3 is the lifeblood of the industry. We wouldnt be cutting off major revenue sources for the D2 gyms. And, a D2 gym would less have to fight the battle of what to do with the one or two level 4 or 5 athletes they come across every year.

Do we like? Yes No? Adjustments?
 
I am in full support of this, but i am skeptical of how (and more importantly IF) it can be implemented on the local and national scale. I imagine EP's will oppose this if it's a money issue, so how do we plan this out? I don't really know the logistics of planning a large scale event, but would it be possible for CHEERSPORT to split the competition over 2 weekends? One weekend for the High School, Rec/Pop Warner, and D1 gyms and then the following weekend is exclusively for D2 and college? Can the same be done for NCA, Jamfest, etc?
 
I am in full support of this, but i am skeptical of how (and more importantly IF) it can be implemented on the local and national scale. I imagine EP's will oppose this if it's a money issue, so how do we plan this out? I don't really know the logistics of planning a large scale event, but would it be possible for CHEERSPORT to split the competition over 2 weekends? One weekend for the High School, Rec/Pop Warner, and D1 gyms and then the following weekend is exclusively for D2 and college? Can the same be done for NCA, Jamfest, etc?

Ya, I definitely think EP would be completely and totally against this.

I have been talking to Level5Mom about a set up very similar to this, but basing the D1, D2, etc. on the SIZE of the gym, not the levels in your gym. So D1 would be all gyms with 50 kids and under. D2 125 and under. D3 225 and under, etc. etc. Do it like high schools and colleges do. That's my opinion.
 
mclovin said:
I have been talking to Level5Mom about a set up very similar to this, but basing the D1, D2, etc. on the SIZE of the gym, not the levels in your gym. So D1 would be all gyms with 50 kids and under. D2 125 and under. D3 225 and under, etc. etc. Do it like high schools and colleges do. That's my opinion.

This idea bothers me a bit because I think this restrics smaller gyms from being competitive with larger gyms and although it wouldn't be a large majority, I think there are some really great "small" gym teams out there who could hold their own with larger gyms. I think it should be up to the gym owner what they would like to choose for their facility.
 
This idea bothers me a bit because I think this restrics smaller gyms from being competitive with larger gyms and although it wouldn't be a large majority, I think there are some really great "small" gym teams out there who could hold their own with larger gyms. I think it should be up to the gym owner what they would like to choose for their facility.

i think it would actually shake up the competition between "large" gyms, i think people automatically assume that the good gyms are the "large" gyms. but there is definitely a size difference between T&S vs. CA vs. Stingrays vs. CEA, etc.
 
This idea or some concept of it has been floating at least since the ProX boards. The D1 and D2 concept seems to make it a lot easier to grasp.

Even though I am a strong advocate of small gyms which often have different dynamics than are talked about on the boards, (because they often are not on the boards) I dont think the size of the gym should play a part. I think that is totally up to the direction of the Vision of that program. If the owners and coaches want to go D1 from day 1 that is fine. If they want to go D1 with 53 kids fine. All D2 does is give them an option to grow their program first and give them competition that may be more vision aligned. Many of the gyms we would think of as small would take D1 because it fits where they are right now as a program. It would allow gyms just transitioning from rec or Pop Warner to All Stars, or new start up gyms to compete against similar programs. However once you go D1 you could not drop back to D2.

As I said in the other thread I do think it should be capped at 5 years in D2. This would not allow any gym to continually avoid their local D1 competitiors in local competitions. I realize they can just choose not to go to those competitions but it makes it much harder to do. They can get out of D2 before 5 years if they like, but 5 years is the limit.

D2 could include all of the current USASF levels up to the restricted levels as we currently have them. Because if the restricted divisions were supposedly created so the smaller gyms that dont have the #'s to draw from could actually train and keep some of their higher level kids a year or two longer until they had enough kids at the same level to form a true Level 5 team they might not lose them to the gym around the corner on that issue. In theory this would allow a restricted 5 from Podunk All Stars to compete against Getting there slowly but Surely All Stars with the same type of kids instead of against many of the what we think would be D1 gyms whose kids in the restricted divisions may be true Level 5 but not the best in the gym to take a position on the showcase teams so to speak.

For a gym that is trying to build a program this could be a lifesaver. It would increase competition and the quality of competition - which is the cry of many. Not just having teams to compete against but teams that are actually competitive in the division.
 
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I dont think the required move from D2 to D1 is smart. I can just shut down my company, start a new one or sell it off, and then start again at D2. Anytime there is an unenforceable rule, I don't think it should be there.

I think you make your gym declaration in March if you are D1 or D2. You go from there. No changing mid season! And if D1 and D2 gyms are never at the same competition there is less chance a D1 gym can recruit from a D2 at the competition... or the D2 kid could want to go to a D1 gym because they saw them at the competiton.

There should be less divisions in D2 (and no more small gym in either D1 or D2). Setup mainly

One of the things that bugs me about cheer is we allow people to shift and go as the season progresses. You cannot stop a team from dropping down levels (there is no good way to say you can't do that, just trust me on this... otherwise I gotta write out a 10 paragraph reason of why), but if a gym competes in a realm and has to stick to it for a year that would, again, solidify things.
 
I see what you mean now with the shutting it down and reopening. Never thought about it that way. My points on that was to eliminate the "sandbagging at D2" cries we would be hearing and to get them on focusing on growing the business and the sport.

In every gym you have those exceptional tumblers, stunters, jumpers, dancers, fliers who very easily could be somewhere else where more of their ability was on display. If you cap D2 at level 3 you basically tell them there is nothing here for you at this program at all beyond level 3. It would not be wise to build a team around one or two kids with upper level skills but that is what we have a lot of smaller gyms doing now to keep from losing those kids. That program would have a much harder time trying to build a Level 4 or 5 team even in the restricted realm.
 
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I see what you mean now with the shutting it down and reopening. Never thought about it that way. My points on that was to eliminate the "sandbagging at D2" cries we would be hearing and to get them on focusing on growing the business and the sport.

In every gym you have those exceptional tumblers, stunters, jumpers, dancers, fliers who very easily could be somewhere else where more of their ability was on display. If you cap D2 at level 3 you basically tell them there is nothing here for you at this program at all beyond level 3. It would not be wise to build a team around one or two kids with upper level skills but that is what we have a lot of smaller gyms doing now to keep from losing those kids. That program would have a much harder time trying to build a Level 4 or 5 team even in the restricted realm.

That lower level program would always have the option to move up to D1 in March for that 1 kid. And, honestly most smaller gyms shouldn't have a level 4 or 5. They don't pay well and there are tons of complaints that the big gyms have such advantages in these divisions, well, now here ya go. That decision has been made for you.

Maybe make one concession... only level 4.2 in D2. No more 4.2 in D1.
 
I wouldn't be against this, but would prefer if the gyms could make the decision themselves. I'm at a small gym, no level 5. I love having my teams compete against the big dogs. I love it even more when we beat them ;)
 
I will take your concession on 4.2. Was thinking about that and Level 4. That could work well. You want to go Level 5 in any division you must go D1.

Still dont like the March declaration because in the smaller gyms you really dont know what you will have until after tryouts. You could as easily lose a team or two as gain one team. But I yield that one and will accept March.

njcoach - the gym does make the decision.
 
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I will take your concession on 4.2. Was thinking about that and Level 4. That could work well. You want to go Level 5 in any division you must go D1.

Still dont like the March declaration because in the smaller gyms you really dont know what you will have until after tryouts. You could as easily lose a team or two as gain one team. But I yield that one and will accept March.

njcoach - the gym does make the decision.

The thing about march is the chance of having a whole other level 4 team is more slim than none. The addition of level 4.2 would give the flexibility for stunting.

A BIG thing, and I want to make this clear, is D1 and D2 need to be separate. I haven't figured out how yet, but it is important. I also feel like D2, if positioned right, will end up twice the size as D1.
 
I revert back to "Every gym started somewhere". I feel like there are PLENTY of avenues for "new/small" gyms to compete and grow. Start small, start simple and grow the right way (if you have questions of this please watch the NACCC video of Green Bay Elite owner). So in simple NO I don't agree with this. I believe that any gym should have the right to compete at any competition at any level, if they get beat they get beat, if they lose kids bc they got beat, they lose kids, if they win (or do really well) and gain kids then they gain kids. I don't feel that new divisions or "special treatment" should be given. There ARE so so many competitions held all over the country currently and I believe creating MORE divisions creates more trouble than its worth. If more gyms would be smarter about their event choices and levels then this would never be an issue. But if you CHOOSE to go to a big comp, get put against and big name (s) and lose or just don't do well it seems like the problem is on the choices you made not on the choices everyone else makes. I'm sorry I just don't see what the problem is?

As far as kids moving all over the place I feel like if THE ID system were put into place, along with a season system that would stop the issue. But year after year kids come and go, sometimes at the beginning of the season sometimes in the middle and sometimes at the end (inevitably right before a big, huge, important competition) but it happens and it happens to everyone. Just like injuries, it happens, you adjust and move on.

After re-reading it sounds harsh and I tried changing it up a bit but I just don't see another way to put it. Let me add by saying IN NO WAY is my gym a "mega" HUGE crazy big name that dominates every competition we go to BUT I feel that the gym I coach at places kids on the appropriate levels (as much as possible) and competes at competitions that fit our style and our program, which has led to growth and continued success over the years. I wish everyone the best!
 
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Miss Greendeer is the ultimate example that if you coach right and do the right things, you will be successfull. May do they stunt well.

BUT maybe I should add to my plan that the number of competitions out there are already too many. It actually weakens the sport that their are so many.
 
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